Posted on 12/29/2006 4:47:11 AM PST by cowboyfan88
Edited on 12/29/2006 8:32:56 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
* I am sure you source is well-intentioned. However, he is ignorant.
Adversus Haereses (Book III, Chapter 3)
A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,—a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,—that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Do you know me?" "I do know you, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.
*Peter resurrected Tabitha. protestants resurrect heresies.
We will just have to disagree. I will take Jesus' word that it is finished and trust in what he did and you can put your trust in your religious system.
If God sends a man who had a saving faith in Christ to Hell for a sin he later committed, He contradicts Himself.
We're not talking about unbelievers, we're discussing the destiny of believers.
There are many believers who fall or backslide. That still doesn't remove them from His royal family.
Our Lord and Savior will judge us. We will be baptised by fire and those works which are not divinely good will be burnt up like wood hay, and stubble. That which is good, will remain as though purified as gold. We will be rewarded for thoe good works.
Our saving faith in Him will be retained as it is a good work from Him. He will not destroy His good works.
That is who Jesus is speaking about
Luke 6....And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?
Luke 13 ..Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
*But, that won't stop you from judging yourself saved. I am just posting this for lurkers.
How bout Jeffrey Dahmer and the person who took an extra newspaper? Price still the same?
Price is still the same and paid en full by the same Redeemer.
If it is possible for a murderer to go to hell after at some point in his life he had saving faith and was given a spirit life by God the Holy Spirit, then likewise there is no salvation for any human, including our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, becasue the basis for salvation of the believer is identical to that of Christ.(Rom 3:22-26) Sin has already been judged.
We are not judged either in heaven nor at the bema seat for sin. Our works are judged and the Book of Life is opened.
We will be tested and our works which do not survive the fire will be burnt up. God is not required to face any iniquity in heaven, and He also was omniscient in His decision to give His believers eternal life. (If it isn't eternal life, he would have called it a temporary lease on life,..he didn't,..He is very clear on the topic.)
What about him? Just how mentally sick do you think someone who is a cannibal is anyway? Does a saved person who let's says has Tourettes go to hell. Hey they can let some curses fly. I knew a guy as a kid who could preach a sermon one second and out curse anyone the next. Dahmer was sick. Did Dahmer sin? Yes. Did Dahmer except Christ? I have no idea nor do you either. Did he pray for what he did on earth either in his on death or torment? Yes.
How about Aundrea Yates or the woman in Tennessee who shot her minister husband? People in this forum were biting at the bit wishing to welcome them to hell. So much for Love Thy Neighbor as Thy self breaking one of Christ biggest commandments. How about Father forgive them for they know not what they do in the cases of Yates, Dahmer, and the woman in Tennessee? It doesn't take a person with a degree in pyschriatritry looking at their pictures to see something bad wrong was happening to them.
But even the ones who we knew were evil such as Hitler and Saddam? How many even prayed for Saddams salvation? Did you? We are required to do so as Christians. That does not mean we do not still pay the price for sin while on earth.
Is there a sin more serious than murder? Oh yes indeed there is. It is calling another man an idiot {fool} actually. Think about it. Do you wish to be judged for each time you have called someone such. How about moments before you die? The minute you die in a wreck or drop over from a massive heart attack.
Asking forgiveness on a daily and sometimes several times a day basis is necessary to keep us in Fellowship with the Lord. Sin separates us from fellowship on this earth but not our eternal salvation. That is because salvation does not depend upon mans works or mans word or deed but rather the Word Of GOD. A Blood Covenant is not breakable in the Bible. A Blood Covenant depends not upon man but rather GOD's Word. How can anyone be saved? If we all sin even unto our deaths how can we then? Sin of any type separates us from GOD as GOD can not look upon sin of any kind because He is HOLY. One sin if the biggest or the least is not asked of forgiveness before we die we are condemned then we are doomed? Who can be saved? "Through GOD everything is possible." Sin by the saved keeps us from fellowship with the Lord. That is why we pray for forgiveness even after we are saved.
You are trying to put us back to being judged for following the law and obtaining salvation from such. Many churches wish to place those type of burdens back on the ones of whom Christ has set free.
My sins are many both before and after my salvation came. I am noticing though the longer I live the more free from the desire of sin I am gaining. Certainly not of my own doing as I am a sinner. It didn't happen overnight. It's taken 35 plus years to get there since that day. I found the sins of my youth were soon enjoyable. Conscience told me turn away from it. That as well did not happen overnight. Did not a very wise man once come to such conclusions? He tried nearly everything that could be tried. What did it bring him? Such as he paid for their sins on earth but live today in heaven. Why? By faith. GOD looked upon some pretty sinful persons Abraham, Jacob {The Father of the nation of Israel}, Lott, Noah, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul, and many other and because of their faith were made righteous before GOD. Their deeds would have sent them all to hell.
"If God sends a man who had a saving faith in Christ to Hell for a sin he later committed..."
...then that man committed an egregious sin which, evidently, he did not feel he needed to ask for God's forgiveness.
Perhaps murder is not a sin we see too often from saved people. Perhaps. But we do see adulterers who never think that they have committed an egregious sin, nor do they think they have to ask forgiveness from God. I pray they do not die that way.
I don't judge them; after all, I could be wrong. But I sure stay away from them.
The Bible states those who do so and teach others to do so will be the least in the Kingdom on Heaven.
19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I would not want to teach anyone to sin. Sin is harmfull to the spiritual and physical being.
I discern my salvation through faith in Christ.
Faith + Works voids a saving faith.
Faith + Obedience voids a saving faith.
Faith + Inviting the Lord into your Heart voids a saving faith.
Once one has a valid simple saving faith, God the Holy Spirit performs the work of salvation in the believer.
If one denies the saving work of the Holy Spirit, then one grieves the Holy Spirit.
By 1stJohn 1:9 we return into fellowship with Him upon turning back to Him with volition and admitting our disobedience to Him. This places our thinking in a state of humility that allows God the Holy Spirit to continue His enabling ministry in our thinking to put on the mind of Christ.
For this reason, whenever we sin after salvation we seek to return to him on His grounds.
If we are unable to return to Him in our thinking or confess those sins, He is not free to further sanctify us prior to the first death. The Judgment will come, and those things which are good in us will be baptised by fire. For believers who have the reborn spirit and saving faith through Christ, life continues eternally. For those who never had eternal life, awaits the Torments.
BTW, you may want to revisit basic concepts of simple faith as opposed to obedience and keeping the law. God desires a relationship with His believers. That relationship only occurs through faith. Without faith through Christ, studying Scripture will only scar the soul in legalism.
I agree with you.
I find it difficult to believe that some on this thread are not saying that, indeed. Sure seems like it.
"once saved, always saved" is anathema.
Look it up.
When we preach to all humans "out there", are we saying there are two different rules? Do not be a murderer, do not be an adulterer, but if you're saved, you have different rules? Both can end up in hell, surely.
If Deacon Smith gets in an argument with Mr Jones both Christians over a land boundary {as an example} and it escalates into a fight and in anger Deacon Smith and Mr Jones shoot each other will either go to hell? No but both will physically die as a result of their anger.
On the other hand if Preacher Joe who runs the First Church in where ever has made a life long habit of molesting his daughters and allowing his daughters to be molested I would have to come to a conclusion that Preacher Joe is a shyster the word dwells not within him nor did they ever. In other words He likely uses the position for self gain. There are many people in church for purposes other than to worship the LORD. It's a business club to them or a social group. And there are some preachers who are no more saved than a pig is a poodle.
Murder is serious yes as is adultery. In the eyes of some church doctrines I am guilty of the second due to marrying a divorced woman. She never cheated on her husband but he sure did her. Was I wrong to marry her? According to some church guidelines yes. According to our own preacher who BTW was about as conservative in doctrine as you could get {Missionary Baptist} we were told in the eyes of GOD her marriage ended when he took the other woman {child} over his wife.
Was it sin for us? Not sure a Priest and a Baptist preacher gave their go aheads as they saw the circumstances. The LORD told me Go Ahead. We went ahead.
Jesus tells us how marriage was intended to be. But I don't think he wants a woman to have her body beaten and cheated on by a tyrant husband either.
Ones I do know who have left their wife for another live to regret it. I am helping a person close to me now through a divorce {she was abandoned recently for another woman} and hopefully to a man who will be a good father and husband. Despite all the pain the man caused to many of us I pray for him and he is on a path of self destruction few return from. No I don't think he has ever excepted Christ. But I don't know.
I personally believe if he was saved and had a conscience which he had not severed he would have been guilt ridden. But the man could tell you the Lord was coming soon with a straight face and steal you blind the next second.
Some of my own backsliding lasted several years at a time. Did GOD let me perish? No. And not because of any good in me because there is little if any good in me. He did it for His own purpose and will.
One of the best examples of GOD's mercy to His chosen is shown us in the very exodus of Israel of the tribe of Israel. They were a disobedient lot weren't they. Making images to worship, sexual impurity, you name it. Did GOD give up? No He had made a Covenant. What did he let them do instead? 40 years in the wilderness till they learned that He is the LORD their GOD. An entire generation perished including Moses their leader. This was a result of their sin on earth. GOD did not give them to the devil.
Where would a Christian stand who falls? Out of fellowship. You sin Brother Bill and as a result you will wonder in the darkness you created until you wake up and repent. GOD knows where you are and will still call you. When you wise up fellowship is restored. If not you live in the stench on this earth you created. Once saved and by that I mean a sincere heart humbled before the LORD answering His call of salvation yes always saved. It is as irrevocable as the Covenant of Israel for it depends not on man to fulfill it but GOD's Word.
I've seen good men fall. A deacon who went to church. I knew him as a kid. His wife died. Let's call him Clem. His pain overwhelmed him and he started drinking. He never harmed anyone but his own liver and health. He had a cousin a woman with 9 kids who's husband had left her for another woman. The man did not so much many weeks buy as much as a loaf of bread. When that happened who showed up? Her cousin the drunk with bags of groceries to feed the kids. He'd drink his beer and pass out and go back to work Monday.
Next door to them was another deacon. A man of good standing in the church and community. Every Sunday Brother Sam would ask the kids to go to church. Sometimes they did sometimes not. Brother Sam was proud of bringing in those kids to church. What the church did not know was the kids had no running water in the house. They carried water from neighbors spickets. It was a rural area. Deacon Sam didn't want his well going dry so he didn't let them have water although common sense said where he was that was not going to happen. The water table was very high. Someone else instead let them get water from their well.
Now three people one day will stand before the Lord Deacon Sam, the man who left his wife and kids hungry, and Deacon Clem. Which would you want to be of the three? I'd rather be Clem. Yet many preachers would be quick to say Clem was headed to hell. Clem drank because he had a pain within him that could not be comforted. I don't know much about Clems last days as he died just a few years back. My guess is he finally got help otherwise he would have died from drinking long ago. Despite his faults Clem did more for the children than their dad and the deacon next door. Clem gave them food he fed the children the drunk he was.
Mark ch 9 41If anyone gives you even a cup of water because you belong to the Messiah, I assure you, that person will be rewarded.
R.I.P Brother Spook.
No one not even the man he bought the groceries from knew what he was doing with them. Why would a drunk who lived in people barns buy several 5 pound rolls of bologna, bread, potato's, cornmeal, and bags of soup beans? My wife asked me that as she knew the man also for years. I told her the reason. I played with those children as a kid.
My guess is Brother Clem cried many a time Father have mercy on me a sinner. There is a say "But for the Grace of GOD Go I". None of us know what we'll be tomorrow or what will come our way. Thank GOD we have a mercifull Savior who understands and even our very spirit groans in prayer where our minds can not.
*That is an unbiblical assertion. Jesus, among other things, feeds us with His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. There is no more intimate relationship possible
There was only one sacrifice on the Cross. If you assert you must continually repent for eternal life, then you deny His saving work. This does not mean in any fashion that fellowship with God remains the same upon post salvation sin with respect to the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in further sanctification of the believer. The passages that stress confession after post salvation sin, refer to the believer continuing in fellowship with God through faith in Christ. They do not refer to a loss of eternal life, again and again and again, only to receive eternal life agian and again and again after confession, nor is eternal life a vacuous promise only to be found after a future Judgment. The Judgment has already occured on the Cross. Another series of judgments occur, but for the believer they are focused on the believer's eternal rewards, not grilling the believer to see if, well, maybe, just maybe, if his sins weren;t too terrible, he might just be allowed sortof to come on into heaven grudgingly.
Once saved, always saved is only anathema for the condemned who not only rebel against the mind of Christ, but who seek to counterfeit His plan with their own works independent of faith through Christ. It is the Gospel for believers.
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