Posted on 12/16/2006 1:07:45 PM PST by Zemo
Wednesday, December 06, 2006
Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?
A Protestant friend who saw the video of Father Plushy giving his Barney blessing -- and truly, I don't know what is more irritating, the priest or the full house of ninnies who sat there singing and clapping -- writes this morning to say:
That video you just posted is the best single argument I have ever seen for ending the celibacy of the priesthood.
Well, maybe. One is entitled to wonder how seriously Father Plushy takes his vow of celibacy, or anything about the dignity and responsibilities of the priesthood. Still, even if priests were allowed to marry, why would that necessarily prevent future Father Plushies from entering the priesthood? On paper, it wouldn't, but if it made the priesthood open to men who would consider it if they could also fulfill vocations as husbands and fathers, it seems to me that you'd stand a greater chance of creating a more healthy manly culture within the ranks of clergy.
Priestly celibacy is not a dogmatic teaching, but rather a discipline of the Catholic Church. The Pope could not overturn the Church's teaching on (say) abortion, but he could theoretically change the celibacy discipline with a stroke of his pen. But should he?
Mandatory clerical celibacy is a discipline that was imposed on Catholic clergy in the Middle Ages. In the Orthodox churches, priests are still permitted to marry, as was the ancient practice. There are limitations on this -- you have to marry before your ordination, and the bishops are drawn from the monastic ranks, which means they must be celibates. But parish priests can and do have families. I've been going to an Orthodox church for a year or so now, though only in full communion for a few months, and I see that the two priests at my parish -- both of whom are married, and have children -- are really wonderful. I find it hard to understand why the Catholic Church insists on clerical celibacy.
Well, let me take that back: for many conservative Catholics, the celibacy requirement is seen as a valuable sign of contradiction to our oversexed age. That resonates with me. I think, though, that it's also the case that many orthodox Catholics resist thinking about ending the celibacy discipline because it's something that progressive Catholics have been pushing for, and to do so would appear to be a major concession to their agenda. But I tell you, after the Scandal revealed how the Catholic priesthood has become heavily gay, and at least some of the gays in the priesthood in positions of power were shown to be systematically using their power to discourage straight men considered a threat to them from continuing in the priesthood -- the "Goodbye, Good Men" thesis, and believe me, I have heard directly from seminarians and priests in the trenches how this works -- more than a few orthodox Catholics (including at least one deeply conservative priest) have said to me that it's time to consider ending mandatory celibacy. Before I even considered becoming Orthodox, I had spoken to Catholic friends about my own doubts on the wisdom of maintaining an exclusively celibate clergy (the distinction being that there will always be men and women called formally to the celibate state, and they must be honored and provided for, as they always have been in the Christian church.)
I think they're right. I mean, look, by year's end we will have seen ordained to the Catholic priesthood of two former Episcopal priests, Al Kimel and Dwight Longenecker, who converted to Catholicism. I have every expectation that they'll be wonderful, faithful, orthodox Catholic priests. And they are also married men. If they are to be welcomed and affirmed as Catholic priests, why not others? To be sure, these men are not campaigning for the end of the celibacy discipline, and as the Longenecker article I linked to in this sentence brings out, a married clergy poses special problems of its own.
Still, I think it's worth talking about, especially because to open up the Catholic priesthood to married men requires no change in the Church's doctrinal teaching. Would bringing married men into the priesthood cause a culture change within the priesthood that would discourage the Father Plushies from celebrating their diversity? I don't know. But I'd sure like to hear what orthodox Catholics and others have to say about it.
"I don't see where you get that meaning. My interpretation of communion is that he was allowed to take the body and blood of Christ recently."
Being "in communion with" or "coming into communion with" are terms which describe the relationship between and/or among Churches and/or bishops. They do not describe the relationship of an individual layperson to The Church. Dreher has spent enough time as a Roman Catholic to understand the terms which have virtually the same meaning in Orthodoxy as they do in the Latin Church. He's either being sloppy or or really self possessed.
Where is it documented that Peter was in Rome?
Perhaps in your narrow mind. Why were Rabbis in the Old Testament expected to endure periods of continence? Why was Moses instructed by God to stay away from his wife?
Actually, your take was the impression I got, too. The Church of Rod Dreher had deigned to enter into communion with the Orthodox Church...lucky you!
On second reading my words did not come out meaning as I intended when read. I wanted to get the point across that both celibate and married non-celibate clergy are part of the church tradition.
Dear ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY,
"Is this a thread for some exclusive group?"
The author of the article that starts this thread is Rod Dreher. Mr. Dreher is a member of Orthodoxy. Thus, I don't really care what he has to say about the Catholic Church.
As a Catholic, I don't tell the Orthodox how to run their show. Nor the Baptists, nor the Mormons. I have my disagreements with each of these, and sometimes try to politely discuss differences with members of each.
Nonetheless, I try to avoid prescribing courses of actions for any of them.
If Mr. Dreher wishes for Catholics to generally listen to his views on Catholicism, then he can become a Catholic.
Oh wait, he did that. Then quit when the going got tough. On his way out, he formally renounced the Catholic Church and Her Faith.
His opinions concerning Catholicism are less than worthless.
sitetest
No, you're thinking of the Episcopalians, who are in the process of being kicked out of the Anglican community. (They've become "of the world.")
Disparaging remark?
You do understand the discipline of celibacy within marriage, do you not?
I prefer the Master's point of view.
IOW, in the context of the entire passage, "Celibacy is OK, but not required to serve God."
Of course - I only wanted to say that non-celibate married clergy are just as historic/traditional/acceptable in Christianity. Your words to me signified that celibate marriage was the only acceptable form of marriage for clergy.
Celibacy is a higher calling, highly praised and practiced by Christ, the Apostles and St. Paul, to mention just a few examples. Those seeking marriage and ordination have 21 Churches to choose from within the Catholic Church or the diaconate within the Latin Rite. Therefore, much of what Dreher, et al, opine on is for all intents and purposes, meaningless gum flapping. The Latin Rite asks that those seeking the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in order to more fully live out the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and St. Paul, to forsake all for the Kingdom, as Scripture teaches.
Does that mean by extension that non-Latin Rite Catholics are inferior?
"The Orthodox consider the Catholics to be a fellow Apostolic church that has fallen into heresy and schism and thus their business - especially since the Pope has made a reconciliation with the Orthodox his mission. So that makes what the Catholics do, Orthodox business."
No, what they believe as dogmatic matters of Faith is our business but even then only because of the reunion dialog. Their disciplinary practices, to the extent they aren't heretical, and God knows a celibate priesthood isn't, are absolutely none of Orthodoxy's business. Why would we care about their rules for their priests in their particular church? As long as they are men and their bishops aren't married, we have nothing to say nor should we.
Christ himself said that when he comes again, he won't hear everyone who cries "Lord;" but only those who obey his commandments. He also chastised his closest disciples for trying to be "first" in his eyes. St Paul admonished the rivalry between the different Christian communities.
With these lessons in the Bible, it seems strange that some still try to say "I'm a real Christian, and you're not."
"The Latin Rite asks that those seeking the Sacrament of Holy Orders, in order to more fully live out the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and St. Paul, to forsake all for the Kingdom, as Scripture teaches."
How well, as a practical matter, do you think this can be accomplished while living in the world? I can see exactly where you are coming from concerning monastics, by the way.
No. Explain why the five remaining Rites in the Catholic Church as well as the Greek Orthodox select only celibates for their Bishops?
The fact of the matter is that all denominations, not just the Catholic Church, are experiencing a shortage in their numbers of clergy and prospective candidates. The media would like us all to believe that it's only the Catholics and that silly celibacy rule that is the problem. Those of us who have taken the time to learn the truth know that that isn't the case. We're beginning to see a resurgence of vocations, particularly in orthodox dioceses, as more and more people get disillusioned with the religion of materialism. As time goes by we'll see even more examples of people who are in the world but not of the world seeking to serve Almighty God.
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