Posted on 12/16/2006 1:07:45 PM PST by Zemo
Wednesday, December 06, 2006
Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?
A Protestant friend who saw the video of Father Plushy giving his Barney blessing -- and truly, I don't know what is more irritating, the priest or the full house of ninnies who sat there singing and clapping -- writes this morning to say:
That video you just posted is the best single argument I have ever seen for ending the celibacy of the priesthood.
Well, maybe. One is entitled to wonder how seriously Father Plushy takes his vow of celibacy, or anything about the dignity and responsibilities of the priesthood. Still, even if priests were allowed to marry, why would that necessarily prevent future Father Plushies from entering the priesthood? On paper, it wouldn't, but if it made the priesthood open to men who would consider it if they could also fulfill vocations as husbands and fathers, it seems to me that you'd stand a greater chance of creating a more healthy manly culture within the ranks of clergy.
Priestly celibacy is not a dogmatic teaching, but rather a discipline of the Catholic Church. The Pope could not overturn the Church's teaching on (say) abortion, but he could theoretically change the celibacy discipline with a stroke of his pen. But should he?
Mandatory clerical celibacy is a discipline that was imposed on Catholic clergy in the Middle Ages. In the Orthodox churches, priests are still permitted to marry, as was the ancient practice. There are limitations on this -- you have to marry before your ordination, and the bishops are drawn from the monastic ranks, which means they must be celibates. But parish priests can and do have families. I've been going to an Orthodox church for a year or so now, though only in full communion for a few months, and I see that the two priests at my parish -- both of whom are married, and have children -- are really wonderful. I find it hard to understand why the Catholic Church insists on clerical celibacy.
Well, let me take that back: for many conservative Catholics, the celibacy requirement is seen as a valuable sign of contradiction to our oversexed age. That resonates with me. I think, though, that it's also the case that many orthodox Catholics resist thinking about ending the celibacy discipline because it's something that progressive Catholics have been pushing for, and to do so would appear to be a major concession to their agenda. But I tell you, after the Scandal revealed how the Catholic priesthood has become heavily gay, and at least some of the gays in the priesthood in positions of power were shown to be systematically using their power to discourage straight men considered a threat to them from continuing in the priesthood -- the "Goodbye, Good Men" thesis, and believe me, I have heard directly from seminarians and priests in the trenches how this works -- more than a few orthodox Catholics (including at least one deeply conservative priest) have said to me that it's time to consider ending mandatory celibacy. Before I even considered becoming Orthodox, I had spoken to Catholic friends about my own doubts on the wisdom of maintaining an exclusively celibate clergy (the distinction being that there will always be men and women called formally to the celibate state, and they must be honored and provided for, as they always have been in the Christian church.)
I think they're right. I mean, look, by year's end we will have seen ordained to the Catholic priesthood of two former Episcopal priests, Al Kimel and Dwight Longenecker, who converted to Catholicism. I have every expectation that they'll be wonderful, faithful, orthodox Catholic priests. And they are also married men. If they are to be welcomed and affirmed as Catholic priests, why not others? To be sure, these men are not campaigning for the end of the celibacy discipline, and as the Longenecker article I linked to in this sentence brings out, a married clergy poses special problems of its own.
Still, I think it's worth talking about, especially because to open up the Catholic priesthood to married men requires no change in the Church's doctrinal teaching. Would bringing married men into the priesthood cause a culture change within the priesthood that would discourage the Father Plushies from celebrating their diversity? I don't know. But I'd sure like to hear what orthodox Catholics and others have to say about it.
"to your ad hominem statements."
Where have I committed this crime?
See #241.
Again, how have I personally attacked you because I am questioning what you say you believe from scripture?
235 was the most recent.
You wrote:
"But we are talking about Rome, Italy not Babylon, Egypt."
Incorrect. We are arguing over what "Babylon" meant to first century Christians. There were two cities called Babylon as their formal name. One city, Rome, was called Babylon in the NT and other Jewish and Christian writings as a code word to describe its decadence. Those are the facts. That's what we've been talking about.
I point out that there is a Babylon in Egypt -- and of course no Protestant here knew that -- to show that Protestants who insist that all the early Christians had no idea of what they were talking about when reading Peter's use of "Babylon" not only make a false assumption, but make such an assumption based on very limited knowledge (i.e. there are two Babylons, not just one).
How is talking about the truth of the scripture a personal attack? I beg you to explain that to me. Thank you.
"One city, Rome, was called Babylon in the NT..."
Where in the NT was Rome called Babylon.
ad hominem: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
I never said you attacked me personally.
"appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect."
Again, what is your specific charge?
IIRC, there are even single parishes that have produced more seminarians than some whole dioceses.
Since they all have the same celibacy requirement, it looks like other factors are at work here. I daresay that the dioceses most successful in attracting ordinands, are the ones who offer a strongly clear-cut fidelity to the teachings of the Church, loyalty to the Pope, and a highly "defined" role for its priests (without the blurred lines of a laicized clergy and clericalized laity.)
If any FReepers can help me find these comparative diocesan statistics, I'd be much obliged.
Your post #235 TOTALLY misconstrued what I wrote in #232.
IIRC, Anglican monks and nuns still take vows of celibacy.
(sigh) Not able to master google? Don't own a Bible or Bible concordance?
1 Peter 5:13
here for the rest (according to Protestant ISBE):
http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T1074
Are you sure? Because there are also references to that Babylon in Revelation from 1 Peter 5:13 that that Babylon isn't positive.
Mrs. Don-o,
You are right. There are some parishes that produce more vocations than entire dioceses these days. Lincoln, Nebraska has two full seminaries ! I remember ten years ago when Arlington Virginia (a new diocese then) was ordaining more people than Los Angeles!!!
What did I misconstrue?
Again, what belief do I have that is false?
You wrote:
"Are you sure? Because there are also references to that Babylon in Revelation from 1 Peter 5:13 that that Babylon isn't positive."
Isn't positive? You mean according to some Protestants? I am sure that is the case!!! LOL!!! I'll trust my Christian ancestors over Protestants any day. Can you present any actual evidence to the contrary? Have anything besides an anti-Catholic burning in the bosom sort of thing goin' for ya' in terms of evidence? Anything at all? Anything?
You misconstrued what I said.
Again, the fallacies of your beliefs are explained in the Catechism that I linked for you in #241.
You caught us! Man, can't sneak anything past you. Fact is, we definitely got him incensed. And now he's en-chanted with y'all.
Ta.
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