Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[Coleus]

The following text is adapted from a lecture Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira gave on June 15, 1973.  It has been translated and edited for publication without his revision.  Note, in this text, he uses the words Revolution and Counter-Revolution as he defined them in his book Revolution and Counter-Revolution.  In this sense, the Revolution is a centuries-old process, motivated by pride and sensuality, and therefore egalitarianism and liberalism, that dominates the modern world and seeks to destroy Christian civilization.  Counter-Revolutionaries are those dedicated to defeating this process and defending the rights of God. –Ed.

…One of the truly Counter-Revolutionary acts of Pope Pius IX’s pontificate was the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception. 

There are three reasons the definition of this dogma was especially Counter-Revolutionary and therefore hateful to the enemies of the Church.  

First Reason: An Anti-Egalitarian Dogma
As you know, this dogma teaches that Our Lady was immaculate at her conception, meaning that, at no moment, did she have even the slightest stain of Original Sin. Both she, and naturally Our Lord Jesus Christ, were exempt from that rigid law that subjugates all other descendants of Adam and Eve.  Thus, Our Lady was not subject to the miseries of fallen man.  She did not have bad influences, inclinations and tendencies.  In her, everything moved harmonically towards truth, goodness and therefore God.  In this sense, Our Lady is an example of perfect liberty, meaning that everything her reason, illuminated by Faith, determined as good, her will desired entirely.  She had no interior obstacles to impede her practice of virtue.

Being “full of grace” increased these effects.  Thus, her will advanced with an unimaginable impetus towards everything that was true and good.  Declaring that a mere human creature had this extraordinary privilege makes this dogma fundamentally anti-egalitarian, because it points out an enormous inequality in the work of God.  It demonstrates the total superiority of Our Lady over all other beings.  Thus, its proclamation made Revolutionary egalitarian spirits boil with hatred.

Second Reason: The Unsullied Purity of Our Lady
However, there is a more profound reason why the Revolution hates this dogma.  The Revolution loves evil and is in harmony with those who are bad, and thus tries to find evil in everything.  On the contrary, those who are irreproachable are a cause of intense hatred.  Therefore, the idea that a being could be utterly spotless from the first moment of her existence is abhorrent to Revolutionaries.  For example: Imagine a man who is consumed with impurity.  When besieged by impure inclinations, he is ashamed of his consent to them.  This leaves him depressed and utterly devastated.

Imagine this man considering Our Lady, who, being the personification of transcendental purity, did not have even the least appetite for lust.  He feels hatred and scorn because her virtue smashes his pride.  Furthermore, by declaring Our Lady to be so free from pride, sensuality and the desire for anything Revolutionary, the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception affirmed that she was utterly Counter-Revolutionary.  This only inflamed the Revolutionary hatred of the dogma all the more.

Disputing the Doctrine: A Counter-Revolutionary Struggle

Declaring that Our Lady was so free from pride, sensuality and the desire for anything Revolutionary, affirmed that she was utterly Counter-Revolutionary and inflamed the Revolutionary hatred of the dogma all the more.

For centuries, there were two opposing currents of thought about the Immaculate Conception in the Church.  While it would be an exaggeration to suggest that everyone who fought against the doctrine was acting with Revolutionary intentions; it is a fact that all those who were acting with Revolutionary intentions fought against it.  On the other hand, all those who favored its proclamation, at least on that point, expressed a Counter-Revolutionary attitude. Thus, in some way the fight between the Revolution and Counter-Revolution was present in the fight between these two theological currents.

Third Reason:  The Exercise of Papal Infallibility
There is still another reason this dogma is hateful to Revolutionaries: it was the first dogma proclaimed through Papal Infallibility.  At that time, the dogma of Papal Infallibility had not yet been defined and there was a current in the Church maintaining that the Pope was only infallible when presiding over a council.  Nevertheless, Pius IX invoked Papal Infallibility when he defined the Immaculate Conception after merely consulting some theologians and bishops.   For liberal theologians, this seemed like circular reasoning.  If his infallibility had not been defined, how could he use it?  On the contrary, by using his infallibility, he affirmed that he had it.

This daring affirmation provoked an explosion of indignation among Revolutionaries, but enormous enthusiasm among Counter-Revolutionaries.  In praise of the new dogma, children all over the world were baptized under the name: Conception, Concepcion or Concepta to consecrate them to the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.

Pius IX: Bringing the Fight to the Enemy
It is not surprising that Pius IX so adamantly affirmed Papal Infallibility.  Very different from those who succeeded him, he was ever ready to bring the fight to the enemy.  He did this in Geneva, Switzerland, which then was the breeding ground of Calvinism, which is the most radical form of Protestantism.  When Swiss laws changed to allow a Catholic Cathedral in Geneva, Pius IX ordered that a statue of the Immaculate Conception be placed in the middle of the city, to proclaim this dogma in the place where Calvinists, Lutherans and other Protestants denied it more than anywhere else.  This is an example of Pius IX’s leadership in the fight against the Revolution. It is therefore entirely proper that all Catholics entertain a special affection for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which is so detested by the enemies of the Church today.

To read another commentary on the Immaculate Conception, click here.
To read Fr. Saint-Laurent's commentary on the Immaculate Conception, click here.
To order your free copy of a picture of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, click here.

[Salvation]

American Catholic’s Saint of the Day

December 8, 2006

Feast of the Immaculate Conception

A feast called the Conception of Mary arose in the Eastern Church in the seventh century. It came to the West in the eighth century. In the eleventh century it received its present name, the Immaculate Conception. In the eighteenth century it became a feast of the universal Church.

In 1854 Pius IX gave the infallible statement: “The most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

It took a long time for this doctrine to develop. While many Fathers and Doctors of the Church considered Mary the greatest and holiest of the saints, they often had difficulty in seeing Mary as sinless—either at her conception or throughout her life. This is one of the Church teachings that arose more from the piety of the faithful than from the insights of brilliant theologians. Even such champions of Mary as Bernard and Thomas Aquinas could not see theological justification for this teaching.

Two Franciscans, William of Ware and Blessed John Duns Scotus, helped develop the theology. They point out that Mary’s Immaculate Conception enhances Jesus’ redemptive work. Other members of the human race are cleansed from original sin after birth. In Mary, Jesus’ work was so powerful as to prevent original sin at the outset.

Comment:

In Luke 1:28 the angel Gabriel, speaking on God’s behalf, addresses Mary as “full of grace” (or “highly favored”). In that context this phrase means that Mary is receiving all the special divine help necessary for the task ahead. However, the Church grows in understanding with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit led the Church, especially non-theologians, to the insight that Mary had to be the most perfect work of God next to the Incarnation. Or rather, Mary’s intimate association with the Incarnation called for the special involvement of God in Mary’s whole life. The logic of piety helped God’s people to believe that Mary was full of grace and free of sin from the first moment of her existence. Moreover, this great privilege of Mary is the highlight of all that God has done in Jesus. Rightly understood, the incomparable holiness of Mary shows forth the incomparable goodness of God.

Quote:

“[Mary] gave to the world the Life that renews all things, and she was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.

“It is no wonder, then, that the usage prevailed among the holy Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, fashioned by the Holy Spirit into a kind of new substance and new creature. Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the splendors of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is, on God’s command, greeted by an angel messenger as ‘full of grace’ (cf. Luke 1:28). To the heavenly messenger she replies: ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word’ (Luke 1:38)” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 56).

[Salvation]

A sermon by St Anselm

O Virgin, by whose blessing all nature is blessed!

Blessed Lady, sky and stars, earth and rivers, day and night – everything that is subject to the power or use of man – rejoice that through you they are in some sense restored to their lost beauty and are endowed with inexpressible new grace. All creatures were dead, as it were, useless for men or for the praise of God, who made them. The world, contrary to its true destiny, was corrupted and tainted by the acts of men who served idols. Now all creation has been restored to life and rejoices that it is controlled and given splendour by men who believe in God.
The universe rejoices with new and indefinable loveliness. Not only does it feel the unseen presence of God himself, its Creator, it sees him openly, working and making it holy. These great blessings spring from the blessed fruit of Mary’s womb.
Through the fullness of the grace that was given you, dead things rejoice in their freedom, and those in heaven are glad to be made new. Through the Son who was the glorious fruit of your virgin womb, just souls who died before his life-giving death rejoice as they are freed from captivity, and the angels are glad at the restoration of their shattered domain.
Lady, full and overflowing with grace, all creation receives new life from your abundance. Virgin, blessed above all creatures, through your blessing all creation is blessed, not only creation from its Creator, but the Creator himself has been blessed by creation.
To Mary God gave his only-begotten Son, whom he loved as himself. Through Mary God made himself a Son, not different but the same, by nature Son of God and Son of Mary. The whole universe was created by God, and God was born of Mary. God created all things, and Mary gave birth to God. The God who made all things gave himself form through Mary, and thus he made his own creation. He who could create all things from nothing would not remake his ruined creation without Mary.
God, then, is the Father of the created world and Mary the mother of the re-created world. God is the Father by whom all things were given life, and Mary the mother through whom all things were given new life. For God begot the Son, through whom all things were made, and Mary gave birth to him as the Saviour of the world. Without God’s Son, nothing could exist; without Mary’s Son, nothing could be redeemed.
Truly the Lord is with you, to whom the Lord granted that all nature should owe as much to you as to himself.

---

[nanetteclaret]

You said: "No one who has a love for the truth will ever be denied it." The Holy Spirit will enlighten us if we but ask.

Meanwhile, here are some Scriptures to look up and ponder:

Matthew 16:17-19
Luke 24:46-49
Matthew 28:18-20
Luke 22:25-26
John 20:21-23
John 6
2 Thessalonians 2:5
Romans 15:30
Revelation 5:8
Revelation 8:3-4
Hebrews 12:1
Colossians 1:24

[Salvation]

 

The Immaculate Conception

---

Feast Day: December 8

Roman Catholic dogma holding that from the first instant of its creation, the soul of the Virgin Mary was free from original sin; this doctrine is not to be confused with that of the Virgin Birth, which holds that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin mother. Despite divergent scholarly opinions, the Roman Catholic church has consistently favored belief in the Immaculate Conception; a festival of that name, the significance of which is now indefinite, was celebrated in the Eastern church as early as the 5th century and in the Western church from the 7th century. Opposition to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was conducted in the 12th century by the French monastic St. Bernard of Clairvaux and in the 13th century by the famous Italian philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas. Among those who supported the doctrine was the 13th-century Scottish theologian John Duns Scotus. The theological controversy over the Immaculate Conception gained momentum in the 19th century. Finally in 1854, Pope Pius IX issued a solemn decree declaring the Immaculate Conception to be a dogma essential for the belief of the universal church. Under the title Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary is invoked as the patron of the United States, Brazil, Portugal, and Corsica.

If Jesus, the Son of God, could choose for His Mother her who pleased Him most, He would surely choose one acceptable to the Blessed Trinity and worthy of the great honour for which she was destined.  Mary was, therefore, not only free from all actual sin, but she also remained exempt from original sin; otherwise, she would not have been a Mother suitable for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

God Himself has testified to Mary's Immaculate Conception by miracles.  Who can number the wonders that have been wrought at Lourdes, where she appeared eighteen times and declared to Bernadette and to the world: "I am the Immaculate Conception," just four years after this doctrine was defined as a dogma of faith?  Mary declared to the wholel world her approval of this doctrine and that she was not only immaculately conceived, but that she is the Immaculate Conception.

THE WORD OF GOD

“You are the glory of Jerusalem, the surpassing joy of Israel; you are the splendid boast of our people….May you be blest by the Lord Almighty forever and ever.”  (Jdt 15:9-10)

“I rejoice heartily in the Lord, in my God is the joy of my soul; for He has clothed me with a robe of salvation, and wrapped me in a mantle of justice,….like a bride bedecked with her jewels.”   (Is 61:10)

“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”  (Rv 12:1)

NOVENA PRAYERS

Novena Prayer
Immaculate Virgin Mary, you were pleasing in the sight of God from the first moment of your conception in the womb of your mother, St Anne.   You were chosen to be the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  I believe the teaching of Holy Mother the Church, that in the first instant of your conception, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race and your beloved Son, you were preserved from all stain of original sin.  I thank God for this wonderful privilege and grace He bestowed upon you as I honour your Immaculate Conception

Look graciously upon me as I implore this special favour:  (Mention your request).

Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your throne in heaven, turn your eyes of pity upon me.  Filled with confidence in your goodness and power, I beg you to help me in this journey of life, which is so full of dangers of my soul.  I entrust myself entirely to you, that I may never be the slave of the devil through sin, but may always live a humble and pure life.   I consecrate myself to you forever, for my only desire is to love your Divine Son Jesus.

Mary, since none of your devout servants has ever perished, may I, too, be saved.   Amen.

Prayer to Mary Immaculate

Mary, Mother of God, your greatness began at the first instant of your existence with the privilege of your Immaculate Conception.  After Almighty God and the Sacred Humanity of Jesus, there is no being so great as you.  It is true, you are a creature, and, therefore, far beneath the Supreme Being.  But you are a creature so holy and so perfect that you are superior to all other creatures.  God alone could make you so holy and so beautiful, and He did so to make you worthy of the dignity of being the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God, the Divine Word.

It was fitting that you, a virgin Mother, should conceive the Man who was also the Son of God.  It was fitting that you should be adorned with the greatest purity ever possible to a creature.  You are the Virgin to whom God the Father decreed to give His only Son – the Divine Word, equal to Himself in all things – that entering the natural order He might become your Son as well as His.  You are the immaculate Virgin whom the Son Himself chose to make His mother.   You are the immaculate Virgin whom the Holy Spirit willed to make his bride and in whom He would work the tremendous miracle of the Incarnation.  The privilege of the Immaculate Conception was suitable to your dignity.

Mary, my immaculate Mother, help me to imitate your sinlessness by keeping my soul free from every willful sin by the faithful observance of God’s commandments.   Help me to imitate your fullness of grace by receiving Holy Communion frequently, where I shall obtain the sanctifying grace that will make my soul holy and pleasing to God, and the actual graces I need to practice virtue.  Through prayer may grace fill my soul with the life of God and transform me into a living image of Jesus, just as you were.

Prayer
Father, You prepared the Virgin Mary to be the worthy Mother of Your Son.  You made it possible for her to share beforehand in the salvation Your Son, Jesus Christ, would bring by His death, and kept her without sin from the first moment of her conception.  Give us the grace by her prayers ever to live in Your presence without sin.  We ask this through the same Christ our Lord.  Amen.

[Salvation]

So what part exactly of St. Luke's Gospel is false?

Gospel
Lk 1:26-38

The angel Gabriel was sent from God
to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,
of the house of David,
and the virgin’s name was Mary.
And coming to her, he said,
“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
But she was greatly troubled at what was said
and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
Then the angel said to her,
“Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,
and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”
But Mary said to the angel,
“How can this be,
since I have no relations with a man?”
And the angel said to her in reply,
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore the child to be born
will be called holy, the Son of God.
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative,
has also conceived a son in her old age,
and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.
May it be done to me according to your word.”
Then the angel departed from her.

[P-Marlowe]

Thus endeth the lesson.

Thank you.

It "all" makes sense now.

[P-Marlowe]

She would have been numbered among the "all" if God had not chosen to save her beforehand.

When did God choose to save you?

[Salvation]

Another translation for you as well as a commentary. Again I ask, "Just what part is false?

to be the spiritual Mother of all mankind. What Christ says when He is
dying--`Behold, your son..., behold, your mother" (John 19:26-27) --
simply promulgates what came about silently at Nazareth. "With her
generous `fiat' (Mary) became, through the working of the Spirit, the
Mother of God, but also the Mother of the living, and, by receiving into
her womb the one Mediator, she became the true Ark of the Covenant
and true Temple of God" (Paul VI, "Marialis Cultus", 6).

The Annunciation shows us the Blessed Virgin as perfect model of
"purity" (the RSV "I have no husband" is a euphemism); of "humility"
("Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord"); of "candor" and "simplicity"
("How can this be?"); of "obedience" and "lively faith" ("Let it be done
to me according to your word"). "Following her example of obedience
to God, we can learn to serve delicately without being slavish. In Mary,
we don't find the slightest trace of the attitude of the foolish virgins, who
obey, but thoughtlessly. Our Lady listens attentively to what God
wants, ponders what she doesn't fully understand and asks about what
she doesn't know. Then she gives herself completely to doing the di-
vine will: `Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to me
according to your word'. Isn't that marvellous? The Blessed Virgin, our
teacher in all we do, shows us here that obedience to God is not servile,
does not bypass our conscience. We should be inwardly moved to
discover the `freedom of the children of God' (cf. Romans 8:21)" ([St]
J. Escriva, "Christ Is Passing By", 173).

[Salvation]

Some explanation as well as prayers to the Immaculate Conception.

Since the 16th century Catholic piety has assigned entire months to special devotions. The month of December is traditionally dedicated to the Immaculate Conception. The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first moment of her conception, by a singular privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, our Savior and hers, was preserved from all stain of original sin. This age-old belief of the Church was defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854 as an article of revealed truth.

Mary was in need of redemption and she was indeed redeemed by the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ. The manner of Mary's redemption, however, was unique. Instead of being freed from original sin after having contracted it, she was preserved from contracting it. This was a most fitting favor for the Mother of the Redeemer.

INVOCATION
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

TO THE VIRGIN IMMACULATE
O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from thy sublime height turn upon me thine eyes of pity. Filled with confidence in thy goodness and knowing full well thy power, I beseech thee to extend to. me thine assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul. And in order that I may never be the slave of the devil through sin, , but may ever live with my heart humble and pure, I entrust myself wholly to thee. I consecrate my heart to thee for ever, my only desire being to love thy divine Son Jesus. Mary, none of thy devout servants has ever perished; may I too be saved. Amen.

PRAYER OF PRAISE
O pure and immaculate and likewise blessed Virgin, who art the sinless Mother of thy Son, the mighty Lord of the universe, thou who art inviolate and altogether holy, the hope of the hopeless and sinful, we sing thy praises. We bless thee, as full of every grace, thou who didst bear the God-Man: we all bow low before thee; we invoke thee and implore thine aid. Rescue us, 0 holy and inviolate Virgin, from every necessity that presses upon us and from all the temptations of the devil. Be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgment; deliver us from the fire that is not extinguished and from the outer darkness; make us worthy of the glory of thy Son, O dearest and most clement Virgin Mother. Thou indeed art our only hope, most sure and sacred in God's sight, to whom be honor and glory, majesty and dominion for ever and ever world without end. Amen.   
Saint Ephrem the Syrian

PRAYER OF POPE PIUS XII
This prayer, dedicated to Mary Immaculate, was composed by the Pope for the Marian Year (December 8, 1953-December 8, 1954), which was proclaimed to mark the centenary of the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, 0 Immacuate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! 0 Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

Prayer Source: Prayer Book, The by Reverend John P. O'Connell, M.A., S.T.D. and Jex Martin, M.A., The Catholic Press, Inc., Chicago, Illinois, 1954

[nanetteclaret]

The date of my baptism as an infant. Of course, I have had to cooperate with that grace along the way, and have backslid a couple of times. Some worse than others. We all have the capability of saying "no" to God's grace and salvation (free will), and I pray daily that I don't do or think something that would be saying "no" to Him. I have to trust that His mercy will protect me from myself.

[Nihil Obstat]

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

[P-Marlowe]

Are you saying that God has still not made up his mind about whether or not he is going to choose you?

Did He not make that decision before your were born?

Indeed before the foundation of the earth?

Or does that only apply to Mary?

[Mad Dawg]

Question was Mary sinless? if yes then no need of Grace

This may already have been answered ...

For us Roaming Calflicks her sinlessness is not intrinsic, so to speak. It's a gift, a grace. Grace made her sinless, we say.

[nanetteclaret]

Of course God has chosen me. The question is, "Have I chosen Him?" Do I live the life that He wants me to live, do I follow Him, would I choose death rather than deny Him, do I take up my cross and follow Him? That is the question. Remember, Jesus said that if we deny Him, He would deny us before the Father. He also said that if we saw the hungry and did not feed them we were doing it to Him. There are many ways to deny Jesus, and I am trying not to do them.

[P-Marlowe]

Of course God has chosen me.

When did he make that decision? Was it before you were born, before the foundation of the earth, or did he have to sit back and wait for you to either get baptized or to make some decision in adulthood?

The bible says that those who whave been chosen have been chosen before the foundation of the earth. Do you believe that? If so, then how is God's choice to save you any different from God's choice to save Mary?

The question is, "Have I chosen Him?"

Really? If God chose you can you veto his choice? Or is his choice the final say?

There are many ways to deny Jesus, and I am trying not to do them.

Is your salvation dependent upon the things you do or is it wholly dependent upon God's mercy?

[nanetteclaret]

Of course I can veto God - just as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. My salvation is dependent on my acceptance of God's mercy. God extends His mercy to all, but many reject it. Many people hate God and then there are others with varying degrees of non-interest. I am trying, with all I say and do, to show Jesus how much I love Him. Being still afflicted with a free will, I fail, because I sometimes choose myself over others. Jesus gives us many examples of those who do not do His will and He will judge us all. But as He said of the woman who wiped His feet with her hair, "She is forgiven much, because she loved much." So love is the key. We love because He first loved us. How do we love? By showing His love to others and by doing His will, in everything we say and do.

[P-Marlowe]

Of course I can veto God

I am quite amazed at your candor. I don't think I have ever witnessed those words being posted so boldly. So God votes you in and you vote him out? Is that the way it works?

So what you must be saying is that your salvation (your eternal destiny) is not wholly dependent upon God's mercy but is solely dependent upon your own unencumbered free will choice? That it is not God who has the final say in whether or not you are saved, but you?

Could God choose you against your free will? Is it possible that God could save you in spite of your free will rather than because of it?

Or is your salvation in your own (free will) hands?

[adiaireton8]

Could God choose you against your free will? Is it possible that God could save you in spite of your free will rather than because of it? Or is your salvation in your own (free will) hands?

That's a false dichotomy. Primary causes and secondary causes operate concurrently, not overdeterministically.

-A8

[P-Marlowe]

That's a false dichotomy

If you can veto God's choice then the final say in whether or not you are saved is not God's. I don't think that is a false dichotomy.

Primary causes and secondary causes operate concurrently, not overdeterministically.

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary.

Can you explain that for all of us in Rio Linda.

[1000 silverlings]

Can you explain that for all of us in Rio Linda

I've been to Rio Linda, and it ain't pretty, lol