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To: Blogger; Kolokotronis
You disagree and negate Paul when you dismiss his abundant testimony that salvation is NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. You rationalize it as "these kind of works verses those kind of works" - a distinction not supported by Scripture

I showed you where it is supported. The judgement is by works, -- I showed you the scripture. Some works condemn, some burn, some remain in heaven -- 1 Cor 3. Christ condemned the Pharisees for works of ostentation. Works are all different, scripture says.

Paul does not say that love is salvific

Modernity thinks that love is an attitude, and that is not salvific. But love is work. That is salvific, St. James says so, and St. Paul agrees:

4 When Christ shall appear, who is your life, then you also shall appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols. 6 For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief, 7 In which you also walked some time, when you lived in them. 8 But now put you also all away: anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another: stripping yourselves of the old man with his deeds, 10 And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. 11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. 17 All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

(Col 3)

Mortify flesh, grow in love, and you will appear with Christ in glory.

You gave your interpretation.

I gave the interpretation that is correct. It is wrong to say that the Catholic interpretation is one, and the Protestant is another, as the protestant interpretationis provenly wrong on Sola Fide: it ignores half the scripture, and misunderstands the other.

there is nothing in the Greek that prohibits that verse [1 Timothy 3:15] from saying that God is the ground and pillar of the truth

"ekklesia (nominative) Theou (genitive) zontos stylos (nominative) kai edraioma (nominative) tes aletheias". Kolokotronis, is my grammar right here? Would not stylos be inflected "stylou" together with "Theou" if it were epithet of God?

The larger point is that Christ explains that the truth is what he sends His Church in these John's passages cited. In Matthew 18:17 we likewise read that the Church, -- not the Scripture under lay interpretation -- is the final arbiter of disputes.

does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures

The Church, not St. Jerome, and certainly not the Jews, defines the Canon.

9,090 posted on 02/06/2007 11:29:56 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Blogger

"Kolokotronis, is my grammar right here? Would not stylos be inflected "stylou" together with "Theou" if it were epithet of God?"

Blogger and I went over this posts and posts ago. I think the answer is no. Either reading is grammatically correct, but I do think that if you want it to read the way Blogger does its strained and probably would require a couple of more words. The phrase "the living pillar and foundation (or base) of the truth" doesn't modify God or church in the way a simple adjective would. For example, "God is the pillar and foundation...." or "The pillar and foundation... is God" The case of the noun to which the phrase relates really doesn't matter here. Of course, the lack of any original punctuation certainly doesn't help matters any.

Maybe blogger saved my undoubtedly erudite response?


9,288 posted on 02/06/2007 4:53:37 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex

Annalex, when I have said it is not of works, using Scripture, you have tried to make a distinction between "salvific" works and the works of the law. That is what I was referring to in this post, but I think you know that. 1 Corinthians 3 doesn't make a distinction of works either. It makes a distinction in MOTIVE for the works. The works done are still works. It is the motive that determines whether they are burnt or not. And note, it is not a salvific judgment for 3:15 clearly states:
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Wha la! You just stumbled on the judgment of the dead in Christ. We will not be judged for our sins. Our sins were already dealt with on the cross. We WILL be judged by our works - but not salvifically. It is a matter of reward or lack thereof. The Bible indicates that there will be some who will be in heaven who didn't do anything with a pure motive for their Lord. Kinda like the Pharisees who prayed in public in order to be seen of men. They will not be rewarded in heaven no matter how pious they appeared on earth. They will get to heaven. They are saved. They have just suffered great loss in terms of reward.

Salvation is not of works, but it works. Again, I contend that you confuse the cause with the effect of salvation. Your love does not get you saved. Yet, if you are saved, you will love.

I have already checked the church is the pillar of truth verse out with a couple of Greek Scholars. Again, nothing forbids God from being the pillar.

And finally, the church does not determine the Canon. The Canon existed before the church took a vote. GOD determines the Canon.


9,292 posted on 02/06/2007 5:26:24 PM PST by Blogger
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