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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; Blogger; kosta50; Quester; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
St. Peter says, "make your election secure" and that is in accordance with the assertion that it is secure?

Yes. Obviously, Peter was talking about his audience being able to be sure for themselves that they were saved. The truth of one's salvation does not equal his knowledge of it. Assurance is available to all believers, but it does not mean all who are saved apprehend it. Perhaps YOU are a glittering example. :) This is one reason I think there are so many outward callings in scripture. They are to help the believer understand exactly what he has in his relationship with Christ. I think the set-up to your verse is pretty clear:

2 Peter 1:5-9 : 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Verse 9 shows that the mind of a believer is subject to less than full understanding. The believer who is not doing the things listed has forgotten what has been done for him. This happens to true believers. Peter is reminding them so as to keep their minds on the lookout for this occurrence. Now, we have your verse:

2 Peter 1:10 : 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, ...

Peter is urging them to never forget what Christ has already done. He is telling them that the works he spoke of are an evidence of the faith that God has already given them. The doing of the works, as evidence, will make their assurance more secure. Taken in the way I "think" you mean the verse, election itself would be determined by works.

FK: "Our difference is whether God elects according to His will or according to man's will."

Nope. We teach that God elects based on his foreknowledge of man's free will choices.

This follows my above. You are saying that man elects himself, and then God just writes down the names outside of time. Then, "from the beginning" He elects them. This is a mockery of any rational concept of predestination and relegates God to the role of stenographer. Either God chooses, or man chooses. I say God chooses.

The scripture does not teach presumption. It teaches against it, see the parable of a publican and a pharisee praying.

The parable does not apply because the presumption is not in oneself, it is in believing that God's promises are true. In many cases the Catholic Church does not believe that God has made a promise when God has made a promise. For example, when Christ says:

John 10:27-29 : 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

By Catholic interpretation, there is no lasting promise here at all, despite what the plain text says. Your interpretation is that Christ didn't mean what He said and promised. Instead, by the view of your hierarchy, Christ actually meant that He gave no one literal eternal life, but only the possibility for it. In addition, Christ meant that a man snatching a soul from the Father's hand was child's play, in the case of that man himself. This nullifies God's promises. We, OTOH, take Christ at His word and rely on His promises. We presume that God meant what He said on these, and about assurance verses generally.

Yes, you can come back to me with the verses about the Keys, and about binding and loosening, etc., and say that I don't take Christ for what He said. BUT, the examples are going to weigh 10 to 1 against your side. We encourage "prospects" to just read the Bible by themselves. You couldn't possibly do that if you wanted them to become Catholics.

8,559 posted on 02/02/2007 2:13:46 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Quester; HarleyD
Annalex to FK: 2 Peter 1:10 : 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, ...

FK: Peter is urging them to never forget what Christ has already done

The verse tells them "do this and you will not fall."

What this really means is that fall is possible and that it takes reminding oneself of Christ continually in order not to fall. In other words, you are not saved until you are saved (after you die).

Until then, God gives us opportunities to remian in His fold by cooperating with Him. But it is not certain by any stretch.

The real problem is that what +Peter is saying here is not exactly what +Paul was preaching in 'his' gospel. What I see in 2 Peter (a very late addition to the NT), and other later additions, is that the Church is trying to attenuate Pauline teaching.

8,565 posted on 02/02/2007 6:18:01 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Blogger; kosta50; Quester; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
Peter was talking about his audience being able to be sure for themselves that they were saved

Your reading of 2 Peter 1:5-10 does not agree with the text. If Peter wanted to say what you impute into it, he would have said it. But he did not: he lists a program of sanctification that, he says, will make the election secure.

You are saying that man elects himself, and then God just writes down the names outside of time ... a mockery of any rational concept of predestination and relegates God to the role of stenographer

But man would not be able to "elect himself" were it not for the divine grace. Where is the mockery?

By Catholic interpretation, there is no lasting promise here [John 10:27-29] at all, despite what the plain text says

Yes, we take it literally. There is a lasting promise, but it does not say that the believer himself cannot leave. "Make your election secure", the scripture urges. We take that literally too.

8,954 posted on 02/05/2007 2:15:58 PM PST by annalex
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