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To: Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock; ...
I received my faith from God alone. Thank you, God. Thank you, Jesus Christ. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Pity the poor castaway on some desert island. No church to save him; his soul lost forever because "he cannot believe alone."

You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be.

The church is made up of all true believers. The church does not predate the word of God nor the naming of the elect. To venerate the earthly institution over the eternal sacrifice is error.

It is the historical fact that the Church exists since the Pentecost (in fact, Protestants like to start it from Adam), and the scripture followed by a few decades; the canonization did not happen till late 4th c. Christ called the Church "his", -- please reconsider "earthly".

"the church is the mother of our new birth, but not the author of our salvation"??? Say what?

We receive baptism from the Church, and the Church received the gift to give it from Christ, Who then is the Author of the salvation therein. I don't know what you do on your island.

"The church guards the memory of Christ's words"? Why not the words themselves, and not just the "memory" of them?

Because " there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Speaking of guarding the words themselves, can you think of any thief who stole 7 books of the word of God? I can.

"Unanimous voice"? Hardly

On the matter of faith, there is no dissenting voice in the Church. See the Canons of St. Vincent of Lerins.

"Tradition" by definition, changes with time and circumstance

Not by the Church's definition. We distinguish between the Holy Tradition that is immutable, and local and temporal traditions such as the liturgy rubrics and priest disciplines that can change because and when they should change.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

And the Church is the speaker, as previously explained.

So men's belief in Jesus Christ is an act of the organization of the church?

Men's belief in Jesus Christ depends on the knowledge of Jesus Christ, received from the Chruch who is sent by Him and intimately knows Him.

questionable addendum

But of course. The Church established the canon and discerns the authentic tradition. You on your island cannot do it even if you wanted to.

***

I praise you for reading the Catechism, and urge all who like you, are curious about the teaching of the Catholci faith do read it and see what our faith is for yourselves.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

5,882 posted on 01/14/2007 8:37:49 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
"I received my faith from God alone."

"You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be."

John 5:38-40, "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life"

Jesus says it is through the scriptures that we have life, not tradition. To say because a Council that affirmed what the Holy Spirit vouch saved through the individual churches as the authentic Word, is somehow responsible or played a part in the salvation of those who have come to Christ through the scriptures, is like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it. Housekeeping functions do not rise to the same level as inspired creativity (mothers excepted).
5,887 posted on 01/14/2007 8:58:53 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; xzins; betty boop; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; .30Carbine; ...
Men's belief in Jesus Christ depends on the knowledge of Jesus Christ, received from the Chruch who is sent by Him and intimately knows Him.

To the contrary, the knowledge is "in" the voice of Christ Himself – the Person – not the men who speak His words, copy it or transmit it electronically. Nor is it in the pressure waves (sound), papyrus, paper or electronic media.

This is an example in support of my objection to all of the doctrines and traditions of mortal men (Mark 7:7) - in that it attempts to anthropomorphize God - by attributing the power of God to man.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matt 22:29

The Spiritual revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord, is not a form of knowledge which can be obtained by reason or sensory perception.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:26-30

The second italicized phrase above is among the reasons I do not recognize any hierarchical organization of men which claims dispositive authority over the members of the body of Christ.

It is a Spiritually perilous thing for anyone to put himself between Jesus Christ and one of His sheep – as we can see in Matthew 23 and again here:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! – Matthew 18:6-7

In no way do I doubt the good intentions of those who find themselves in a position of authority in any of the assemblies of the members of the body of Christ here on earth. The position requires exceptional humility and absolute dedication to Christ – but never can a mortal man pluck one of Christ’s sheep out of His hand.

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Rev 1:18

He did not hand those dispositive keys over to Peter, the church, the apostles or any assembly of mortal believers in this passage:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. – Matt 16:19


5,888 posted on 01/14/2007 9:01:11 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: annalex
I don't know what you do on your island.

I don't fall down to the stock of a tree.

5,904 posted on 01/14/2007 11:39:55 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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