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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
"I received my faith from God alone."

"You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be."

John 5:38-40, "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life"

Jesus says it is through the scriptures that we have life, not tradition. To say because a Council that affirmed what the Holy Spirit vouch saved through the individual churches as the authentic Word, is somehow responsible or played a part in the salvation of those who have come to Christ through the scriptures, is like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it. Housekeeping functions do not rise to the same level as inspired creativity (mothers excepted).
5,887 posted on 01/14/2007 8:58:53 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; annalex; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
"Housekeeping functions do not rise to the same level as inspired creativity (mothers excepted)."

Is it a tenet of Protestantism that the hierarchs who determined most of the canon of scripture you study were merely performing a sort of automated housekeeping project, understanding little if anything of what they were reading, persisting as they did in their "unscriptural" liturgies and ecclesial structure, venerating icons, praying to saints, etc. so that, 1100+ years later, a few Western European guys angry at the medieval Papacy would finally and at long last sort of understand what was necessary for salvation and that from that "sort of" level of understanding arises the at long last harmonious theology of 21st century Protestantism?
5,891 posted on 01/14/2007 9:36:59 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: blue-duncan
The Scriptures themselves are a tradition. That they and not, say, the Acts of Pilate or the Gospel of Thomas are The Holy Scriptures is tradition. Jesus talks about the "traditions of men", but some drop the "of men" part and say He condemns all tradition.

To say because a Council that affirmed what the Holy Spirit vouch saved through the individual churches as the authentic Word, is somehow responsible or played a part in the salvation of those who have come to Christ through the scriptures, is like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it.

Two objections:
(1) It is not like saying she had a part in writing it, but it is like saying she had a part in your reading it. The Librarian came to you and said, "Here, read this. It has the stuff you need."
(2) And it's not just cataloguing. Some members of the Library staff wrote the various books. Some compiled them. Some copied and preserved them and translated them. And, as you and others say, Some said not only,"These books are what you need to read; they are reliable," but also, by implication, "Those books are NOT reliable." It was the library staff which, in response as it seems to folks like Marcion, decided that it might be good to start thinking about the idea of an authoritative collection."

The conciliar decision that these books are in and those out is part of an inspired process which got the books into the hands of those who came to Christ through them. Maybe the person who sets the plate before you didn't grow the food, but if the plate is not set before you, you will not eat it. It is the Spirit working in you which leads to your discerning and hearing the Word in the ScriptUres. It was the same Spirit which worked at critical points between the initial authorship and your reading, it seems to me.

Housekeeping may not be the pinnacle of matrimonial life, but done in love and faithfulness to the marriage and the God who blessed it, it can rise to an almost sacramental level as a bestower of Spiritual blessing for the one who does it and the for whom it is done.

And where my argument gets weak is when we hire Rent-a-maid to clean house for us, or Zondervans to print our Bibles. But I think it still stands, though weakly, even then.

5,893 posted on 01/14/2007 10:01:08 AM PST by Mad Dawg ('Shut up,' he explained.)
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To: blue-duncan
John 5:38-40, "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life"

Jesus says it is through the scriptures that we have life, not tradition.

AMEN! In fact, tradition is often dismissed outright by Jesus and the Apostles.

"But avoid foolish questions, and geneologies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." -- Titus 3:9

And I guess Titus 3:10 is where "three strikes and you're out" comes from...

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." -- Titus 3:10-11


5,903 posted on 01/14/2007 11:36:09 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
Jesus says it is through the scriptures that we have life, not tradition

In John 5:38f? Not at all. Christ is talking to the pharisees and is asking them to search the Hebrew Scriptures, because the pharisees think that eternal life comes form the scriptures. He invites them to discover the prefiguring of Christ in them.

like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it

My Church wrote the New Testament, not meraly catalogued it. Your community of faith, however, banned some Christian books and doesn't seem to be able to read and comprehend the rest.

6,269 posted on 01/16/2007 11:57:41 AM PST by annalex
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