That alone should put a damper on any historical aspirations, as St. Augustine is a late authority with regional appeal. fortunately for him, while he was an inspiration for the Reformers, he never actually believed anything the Reformers accuse him of believing ...
I find it interesting that when Augustine says things you don't like, he is a late comer with only regional appeal, and besides, he took back everything that you didn't like. But when he says things you do like, he is "Blessed Augustine". It was your folks who declared him a saint. Based solely on comments from Catholics, I really see a love-hate relationship with this man.
[Irenaeus:] Those, therefore, who speak against this gift [Eucharist] of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.
Unless the human ritual of Eucharist is salvation itself, isn't death a pretty harsh sentence to proclaim against all non-Apostolics?
..............
and tell me if this reminds you of Protestantism.
Well of course it doesn't, but why should it? Probably most of the writings of the Fathers which survived I disagree with. It wasn't my attempt to show otherwise. My point was to note that Protestant ideas DID exist from early on, and that the Reformers did not make everything up, as is so often the accusation from Apostolics.
"I find it interesting that when Augustine says things you don't like, he is a late comer with only regional appeal, and besides, he took back everything that you didn't like. But when he says things you do like, he is "Blessed Augustine"."
No, not the Latins, FK; that's we Orthodox who do that.
A: " and tell me if this reminds you of Protestantism.
FK: Well of course it doesn't, but why should it?
I suppose I'm curious why those passages from the Fathers don't remind you of Protestantism. On their face that is precisely what they describe.
"My point was to note that Protestant ideas DID exist from early on, and that the Reformers did not make everything up, as is so often the accusation from Apostolics."
Heresy has indeed been around from the beginning. We see it even in Acts. But surely you aren't saying that the first of the reformers had access to information that no one has seen about these proto-protestants ever since? If you find the time, make a study of the heresies of the first two centuries of Christianity. You'll find nothing you want to identify with, FK. Personally, I sincerely doubt that the early Reformers looked to early heretics for inspiration. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura forms a much better basis for Protestantism than anything Gnostics or Montanists or the like believed. I understand that the creation of a sort of historical continuity is important to answer the criticisms leveled by The Church that Protestantism is an innovation, but that sort of historical exegesis is modern post hoc propter hoc arguing and ends up tying you to people you really don't want to be identified with. Stick with Sola Scriptura and blame us Greeks for the "error" of the first 1500 years of Church history.
Love-hate relationship? Who hates St. Augustine and is Catholic? Perhaps you are confusing the fact that he wrote some things that the Church did not accept as "hate"? Perhaps you are confusing the "disgust" for those who twist St. Augustine's writings? But St. Augustine is a key Church Father and you'd be hard pressed to find something he DIDN'T write on regarding the Catholic Faith. I am currently reading some of his sermons on John's Gospel. Quite interesting
Unless the human ritual of Eucharist is salvation itself, isn't death a pretty harsh sentence to proclaim against all non-Apostolics?
Not entirely...
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1 Cor 11:28-30
and tell me if this reminds you of Protestantism.
Probably most of the writings of the Fathers which survived I disagree with.
Naturally. You have already pre-determined what the Scriptures teach despite what anyone says, and so anything that was written or believed by the entire Church 1000 years ago is inconsequential.
This is the pillar of Protestantism - rather than receiving the Word of God, accepting as something outside of ourselves, you personally decide what it means. Is it any wonder people claim the Bible backs up their own preconceived theological claims that justify their own ideas? St. Irenaeus had to deal with this himself in 180 AD. Fighting the will of God through His Community is nothing new.
Regards
"Blessed" is one stage below "saint" and is St. Augistine's station in the Orthodox Church. He is a canonized saint of the Catholic Church. If I called him "blessed", my apologies, I should not have.
More to the point, all he says and I have read I like. He is a major father of the Western Church, no doubt. I do not like how he is misinterpeted. The East does not like his teaching on original sin, and the East has never fully embraced him. So, he has a regional appeal. He is undoubtedly late, AD 354-430.
Any father of the Church is authority if he is speaking in consensus with the rest of the Church. Almost in all of them you can find something that is not of consensus. This is why they are not inspired scripture, but they are -- inasmuch as speaking with one voice -- a necessary part of underastanding the Deposit of Faith.
Unless the human ritual of Eucharist is salvation itself, isn't death a pretty harsh sentence to proclaim against all non-Apostolics?
The Eucharist is not a human ritual. Humans cannot turn wine into blood, and rituals cannot save. It is a sacrament ordinarily necessary for salvation, yes, and avoidance of it is death: "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you" (John 6:54).
Probably most of the writings of the Fathers which survived I disagree with [...] My point was to note that Protestant ideas DID exist from early on
So, you disagree with the early Church, period. You find something in Augustine that you use a s a jumping off point. Your beliefs are completely ahistorical.