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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; Blogger; xzins; HarleyD; kosta50; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
when Augustine says things you don't like, he is a late comer with only regional appeal, and besides, he took back everything that you didn't like. But when he says things you do like, he is "Blessed Augustine".

"Blessed" is one stage below "saint" and is St. Augistine's station in the Orthodox Church. He is a canonized saint of the Catholic Church. If I called him "blessed", my apologies, I should not have.

More to the point, all he says and I have read I like. He is a major father of the Western Church, no doubt. I do not like how he is misinterpeted. The East does not like his teaching on original sin, and the East has never fully embraced him. So, he has a regional appeal. He is undoubtedly late, AD 354-430.

Any father of the Church is authority if he is speaking in consensus with the rest of the Church. Almost in all of them you can find something that is not of consensus. This is why they are not inspired scripture, but they are -- inasmuch as speaking with one voice -- a necessary part of underastanding the Deposit of Faith.

Unless the human ritual of Eucharist is salvation itself, isn't death a pretty harsh sentence to proclaim against all non-Apostolics?

The Eucharist is not a human ritual. Humans cannot turn wine into blood, and rituals cannot save. It is a sacrament ordinarily necessary for salvation, yes, and avoidance of it is death: "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you" (John 6:54).

Probably most of the writings of the Fathers which survived I disagree with [...] My point was to note that Protestant ideas DID exist from early on

So, you disagree with the early Church, period. You find something in Augustine that you use a s a jumping off point. Your beliefs are completely ahistorical.

10,380 posted on 02/14/2007 3:54:47 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
"Blessed" is one stage below "saint" and is St. Augistine's station in the Orthodox Church. He is a canonized saint of the Catholic Church. If I called him "blessed", my apologies, I should not have

Saint Augustine is a Saint in the Orthodox Church. Saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church can be referred to as "blessed."

10,425 posted on 02/14/2007 8:24:05 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; jo kus; Blogger; xzins; HarleyD; kosta50; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
More to the point, all [St. Augustine] says and I have read I like. He is a major father of the Western Church, no doubt. I do not like how he is misinterpreted.

Well, now that may be a problem. I understand that the Church interprets the Apostles. But who interprets the individual interpreters, especially on stuff that is not in consensus with the Church?

The Eucharist is not a human ritual. Humans cannot turn wine into blood, and rituals cannot save. It is a sacrament ordinarily necessary for salvation, yes, ...

Sure it's a human ritual:

Ritual:

1. a. The prescribed order of a religious ceremony. b. The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship. (FOD)

Besides, you do say that humans can forgive sins, so that would make confession a ritual AND salvific.

So, you disagree with the early Church, period. You find something in Augustine that you use as a jumping off point.

While I think that Augustine was closer to scripture on many points than most (maybe all) of the others, I don't think the early Church was wrong about everything. We couldn't consider each other Christians otherwise. :)

10,821 posted on 02/19/2007 1:17:25 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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