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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; jo kus; Blogger; xzins; HarleyD; kosta50; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
More to the point, all [St. Augustine] says and I have read I like. He is a major father of the Western Church, no doubt. I do not like how he is misinterpreted.

Well, now that may be a problem. I understand that the Church interprets the Apostles. But who interprets the individual interpreters, especially on stuff that is not in consensus with the Church?

The Eucharist is not a human ritual. Humans cannot turn wine into blood, and rituals cannot save. It is a sacrament ordinarily necessary for salvation, yes, ...

Sure it's a human ritual:

Ritual:

1. a. The prescribed order of a religious ceremony. b. The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship. (FOD)

Besides, you do say that humans can forgive sins, so that would make confession a ritual AND salvific.

So, you disagree with the early Church, period. You find something in Augustine that you use as a jumping off point.

While I think that Augustine was closer to scripture on many points than most (maybe all) of the others, I don't think the early Church was wrong about everything. We couldn't consider each other Christians otherwise. :)

10,821 posted on 02/19/2007 1:17:25 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; Blogger; xzins; HarleyD; kosta50; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
I understand that the Church interprets the Apostles. But who interprets the individual interpreters, especially on stuff that is not in consensus with the Church?

If such individual is not in consensus with the Church, then that is the final judgement on him.

it's a human ritual

Ye,s there is a rutualistic element to all sacraments, but it is not their essence. It is incorrect to describe sacraments, that involve the Divine grace, as a ritual.

11,289 posted on 03/13/2007 5:13:33 PM PDT by annalex
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