'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[D-fendr]

Scripture. It is the anchor... We dig through Scripture. Chew on it a while.

And, as you've said, come up with different interpretations.

Why? Because that is one of the ways that God helps us to learn.

Not doubting the value of reading scripture. But who then teaches and corrects when one asks: What does Christ's Church teach?

He left teachers here to teach.

Yes he did and they taught others who taught others in the manner Christ established..

"some centralized hierarchical structure saying "yep, it's from God." ?"

If you have a Church - excepting perhaps a Unitarian one - somebody, somewhere said that. Does you not teach that what you teach is "from God."? Our disagreement is about who teaches what and why and what their method and authority is.

How do you know the church got it right?

That's the question isn't it? Your answer is 'they agree in what I think are essentials according to (my interpretation of) scripture.

Personally I see that as a formula for invent your own religion based on this book.

I don't look for The Church, The Christian Church, to give me this assignment. I want to know from it what is the Orthodox Christian Faith. I can reject or accept this. But I can't even get this far with Protestantism.

[Quix]

Quite so. Quite so.

I've met some.

[D-fendr]

The Communion of Saints means what it always meant since the Creed was formed.

[Quix]

I haven't seen my REALS LIFE EXAMPLES from China and tribal groups

Defended against at all--much less with a shred of validity.

[Blogger]

DOG ON NOW KAWAII!!! YOU DONE BROKE THE BIG FONT METER!!!!

[Blogger]

Which is?

[Blogger]

I'll help here.

You look to your church for the assessment because your church says it has the assessment. The Church claims this right to assess based upon their interpretation of Scripture. How do you know they are right? You accept it by faith.

How do we know we have it right? Ultimately by faith - but in our case without the intermediary.

[kawaii]

In my opion y'all have regural meetings...

[D-fendr]

I think it would be more correct to say it's meant what it's meant since before the Creeds.

[D-fendr]

Not meaning to complicate things but it does depend on what you mean by faith.

If I understand your meaning correctly, I would say, 'no, not just by faith.'

[Blogger]

Then what by? How do you know your church teaching is right?

[D-fendr]

in our case without the intermediary.

I'm a free agent, Blogger. Born Protestant, raised in the Bible Belt.

[Blogger]

And yet, you trust the church as an intermediary between your understanding and Scripture.

[D-fendr]

Two questions here actually. How do I know they teach the true Christian Faith and Church and How do I know they're right.

The first is incredibly obvious to me on the basis of history and scripture. The more I learn, the more that to find otherwise is just incredibly stubborn or uninformed or perhaps habit or prejudice or based on a bad experience. (No offense intended.)

The second question is a more personal and internal matter.

[D-fendr]

On the second question, I must point out in keeping to a topic that whether I "know it's right" or not, first I must know what it is. And again, Protestantism is sorely lacking in that teaching aspect.

[D-fendr]

My case is quite different, but I won't bother you with it.

The point is again, before I can choose to trust or not to trust, I have to know what it's understanding of scripture is.

Not "all you need is the Word."

That, IMHO, is no answer to the question I've asked.

[Blogger]

Uh, no it isn't. And you know that if you came out of Protestantism.

[Quix]

What a sweet thought.

BTW, my college roommate--was a Japanese Hawaiian from Eleelee sp? Kauai

[Blogger]

On the Apostles Creed: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xiv.iv.html The earlier form [of the apostles creed].... may possibly go back to the third or even the second century. It was probably imported from the East, or grew in Rome, and is substantially identical with the Greek creed of Marcellus of Ancyra (about 340), inserted in his letter to Pope Julius I. to prove his orthodoxy, 956956 In Epiphanius, Haer. LXXII. it is assigned to a.d. 341, by others to 337. It is printed in Schaff (II. 47), Hahn, and in the first table below. It contains, according to Caspari, the original form of the Roman creed as current at the time in the Greek portion of the Roman congregation. It differs from the oldest Latin form only by the omission of πατέρα , and the addition of ζωὴν αἰώνιον 56and with that contained in the Psalter of King Aethelstan..957957 The Psalterium Aethelstani, in the Cotton Library of the British Museum, written in Anglo-Saxon letters, first published by Ussher, then by Heurtley, Caspari, and Hahn (p. 15). It differs from the text of Marcellus by the insertion of πατέρα and the omission of ζωὴν αἰώνιον , in both points agreeing with the Latin text. 57 Greek was the ruling language of the Roman Church and literature down to the third century..958958 On the Greek original of the Roman symbol CaspariÂ’s researches (III. 267-466) are conclusive. Harnack (in Herzog 2, vol. I. 567) agrees: " Der griechische Text ist als das Original zu betrachten; griechisch wurde das Symbol zu Rom eine lange Zeit hindurch ausschliesslich tradirt. Dann trat der lateinisch übersetzte Text als Parallelform hinzu ." Both are disposed to trace the symbol to Johannean circles in Asia Minor on account of the term "only begotten, ( μονογενής ), which is used of Christ only by John. 58 The longer form of the Roman symbol, or the present received text, does not appear before the sixth or seventh century. It has several important clauses which were wanting in the former, as "he descended into hades,"959959 Descendit ad inferna, first found in Arian Creeds ( εἰς ᾅδου or εἰς ᾅδην ) about a.d. 360; then in the Creed of Aquileja, about a.d. 390; then in the Creed of Venantius Fortunatus, 590, in the Sacramentarium Gallicanum, 650, and in the ultimate text of the ApostlesÂ’ Creed in Pirminius, 750. See the table in SchaffÂ’s Creeds, II. 54, and critical note on p. 46. Rufinus says expressly that this clause was not contained in the Roman creed and explains it wrongly as being identical with "buried." Com. c. 18 (in Migne, f. 356): "Sciendum sane est, quod in Ecclesiae Romanae Symbolo non habetur additum, Â’descendit ad inferna:Â’ sed neque in Orientis Ecclesiis habetur hic sermo: via tamen verbi eadem videtur esse in eo, quod Â’sepultis dicitur.Â’" The article of the descent is based upon PeterÂ’s teaching, Acts 2: 31 ("he was not left in Hades," εἰς ἅδου, consequently he was there); 1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6; and the promise of Christ to the, dying robber, Luke 23:34 (" to day thou shalt be with Me in paradise," ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ ), and undoubtedly means a self exhibition of Christ to the spirits of the departed. The translation " descended into hell" is unfortunate and misleading. We do not know whether Christ was in hell; but we do know from his own lips that he was in paradise between his death and resurrection. The term Hades is much more comprehensive than Hell (Gehenna), which is confined to the state and place of the lost. 59 the predicate "catholic" after ecclesiam,960960 It is found first in the Sacramentarium Gallicanum, 650. The older creeds of Cyprian , Rufinus, Augustin , read simply sanctam ecclesiam, Marcellus ἀγίαν ἐκκλησίαν 60 "the communion of saints,"961961 Sanctorum communionem. After 650. 61 and "the life everlasting."962962 Contained in Marcellus and Augustin , but wanting in Rufinus and in the Psalter of Aethelstan. See on all these additions and their probable date the tables in my Creeds of Christendom, II. 54 and 55. 62 These additions were gathered from the provincial versions (Gallican and North African) and incorporated into the older form.

[D-fendr]

Well I did and I don't.

Bottom line is if I read it differently.. you're wrong and I'm right.

I know that's simplified but that's the Protestant testing by scripture.

Of course you will say I'm wrong based on Scripture or I did it wrong or..

Bottom line is.. You can't tell me what the Christian Teaching is. Not with anymore authority than I can tell you. If we're both Protestants. All we can do is debate it.