Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
There was never a time when Christ did not exist and don't call me Shirely.
I 'spose you missed my post where I broke the back of sola scriptura on the rack of absurdity... here it is enjoy...
Hmm...I guess the Church has taught error for more'n 2000 years and it has been dead wrong about Mary's Perpetual Virginity.
*Ok, I'm gonna try my hand at this sola scriptura stuff. Unguided by the Church who wrote and canonised the New Testament, I will take a look at this Scripture and explain its obvious meaing...
And Jesus said: Somebody hath touched me; for I know that virtue is gone out from me. And the woman seeing that she was not hid, came trembling, and fell down before his feet, and declared before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was immediately healed. But he said to her: Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go thy way in peace.
*Ok, it is obvious what Scripture is telling us. Other than a Father, who refers to a young woman as "daughter?" We read in the Scriptures the woman had an issue of blood for twelves years. IOW, she prolly just started mensturating. "Twelve" is, obviously a reference to when she began her period, because "for" can also mean "since" accrd to some scholars.
Prolly, Jesus had a daughter out of wedlock and she was having a tough time with mensturation etc. but she didn't want to embarass Him publicly by identifying Him as her Father, and thereby jeopardising His Ministry, so she just touched His garment...
And, young women were supposd to stay outsiedde the camp when mensturating etc
Hey, that was easy. And fun, and iconoclastic...
What? You say that means that Jesus was a sinner? Well, whatever. It is there in Scripture and trying to deny the obvious is just foolish.
Besides, scholars of today know FAR more than the poorly educated, superstitious, women-hating Church back then... (name one of them who had a College Degree?..or Access to Strong's Dictionary)
Anyways,so what would it matter if Jesus had a daughter? It doesn't specifically say He fathered a child out of wedlock anyways. Prolly, He had maried (Magadalen?) secretly and exchanged vows quietly...In any event, Fathering a daughter was quite common for religious men of his age - even if he, or they, had sinned or not. Children were valuable and they were useful to care for you when you got old..
Besides, whether He was married or not, Jesus had a Daughter, obviously, He identifed her as such and yet He still died for our sins and God still accepted His Sacrifice and we are still Saved.
What is the big deal?
Let's just unite around that essential and agree to disagree about all of these nettlesome, and, face-it, inconsequential inessentials. They only separate us and make for long arguements...
2,185 posted on 12/19/2006 11:40:02 AM PST by bornacatholic
Well, you certainly have points for originality
Definition
1) a daughter of God
2)acceptable to God, rejoicing in God's peculiar care and protection
3)with the name of a place, city, or region denotes collectively all its inhabitants and citizens
4)a female descendant
I have never heard of such a goofy interpretation of the scriptures in my entire life. The scary thing though is someone who didn't read and seek to understand the bible for themselves might believe it. Hence we get something like the DaVinci code leading febrile minds astray.
My answer to you is Scripture: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 (King James Version) 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
*How do you know what you read is suposed to be in the new testament. The new testament has no list of books that ought be included.
2 Peter 3 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
*Who told you what Paul wrote was scripture? Scripture doesn't. Who said what the First Pope was writing about was included in scripture. There is no evidence there in scripture. You are just making unscriptual assumptions.
16As also in all his epistles speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures unto their own destruction.
*Ahem...
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
*What? THe old or the new testament?
Per these verses, one sees that 1)All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righeteousness.
Profitable does not mean the only source. And it does not say what is to be included and excluded form scripture. You can tahnk tghe Catholic Church for deciding what would and wouldn't be included in scripture. The Catholic Church preceeded the New Tsetament.
2)Per Peter, Paul's letters were Scripture.
*Nope. It doesn't identify any particular one - so, again, you are just assuming what we decided would be in scripture is scripture
3)Per Paul, the gospels which contain the account of Christ's rising from the dead were Scripture.
*It does not say that at all....
Considering that the account of the Bereans is getting towards the END of Paul's ministry and the New Testament books circulated widely in the early church,
*It does not say that in scripture
it is not unfathomable that they were also looking at New Testament Scripture when comparing what Paul was verbally telling them in person.
*SCripture does not sdaythat
You have NO Scripture to indicate that they weren't. Likely, they were.
*THAT is sola scriptura? That is like believing the Govt can do whateverr is not prohibited them in the Constitution. Just the opposite is the truth.
10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Scripture does not say they read the new testament
Good Lord, man. THe Scripture says Faith comes by HEARING.Did the bereans have talking books?
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world
They standard set by the Bereans is that everything is to be tested by Scripture.
*So, the old testament is your sole rule of Faith?
They didn't wait for some church council to interpret it for them. They took the advice of Jesus and "search(ed) the Scriptures).
*Fine. You are stuck with the olfd testament
They didn't have to wait for a church bureaucracy to do anything, for as John said in 1 John. Speaking to the "little children", John said "1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.
*Really? Then why did Jesus establish a Church if it was unnecesary?
But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."
*But, they didn't.
Of course, some still require teaching because they refuse to dig into the word and find out for themselves.
*Then, you are disputing your own Rule of Faith.
They are either too lazy or have been duped into thinking they can not understand it on their own. As the writer of Hebrews said: Hebrews 5 11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
*So, ylur own Sole Rule of Faith contradcits itself.
Thank you for illustrating sola scriptura is non-sensical and self-refuting
The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that Jesus is speaking figuratively there. Since all truth is God's truth, I can claim that. In order to confirm that it was indeed the Spirit bearing witness and helping me to understand that verse, I compare it with other verses. Are there any references in Scripture to Jesus' having a literal daughter? No. Therefore, I am able to deduce, by the God-given mind that I have, that he is speaking of a spiritual/figurative daughter of God. Being Sola Scriptura does not entail interpreting every phrase in the Bible literally. We are aware that the Bible speaks figuratively and poetically at times. The context determines those times. After all, when God says he will hide us in the shadow of His wings, He is not saying that he is a big bird.
Besides, Jesus said Daughter.
What young women, who are not your daughters, do you refer to as "daughter?"
ummm, that's who said it.
Look, did Jesus call that young woman Daughter or not?
Why would He call a young woman Daaughter if He had not fathered a child?
Come on...
"There is simply no scripture that I'm aware of initiating a "no touch" rule with regard to a person, or any part of a person. (Insert joke here. :)"
A US Senator buddy of mine once told me that Hillary Clinton had a "no look" rule after she was first elected to the Senate...but I don't think it had anything to do with holiness!
I'm not living in an Oriental society where it's a cultural thing to address one another in these endearing terms of respect. I do however, have Chinese friends who call every male older than themselves "uncle". It's interesting that you like this interpretation, even if for just the sake of argument, but probably will take the exact oposite tack when trying to explain the bible calling someone "Jesus' brother."
On the one hand you claim that "brothers" must mean that Mary had other children when it is clear "brothers" has a different meaning than what you attach to it. And, we have the witness of Church, Ecumenical Councils,and Tradition to back that up.
On the other hand, when Jesus calls a young woman Daughter you say He had no children.
That makes no sense.
I have a Daughter I am a Father. Can I both have a daughter and not be a Father? It appears I can in sola sciptura world
It appears that the real meaning of scripture is simply what you say it is. And there is no scriptual authority for your ownself that you can appeal to. You aint mentioned in the Bible.
Now, why don't you show me where anyone else in the Bible called a young woman Daughter daughter and then maybe we would have something objective to go on. Otherwise, all we got is your personal opinons which, as we have illlustrated repeatedly, are wildly opposed to orthodoxy throughout the ages.
No, God was always the Holy Trinity. The Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils speak of the Persons of the Trinity being co-eternal, of the begottenness of the Son and procession of the Spirit from the Father as being eternal.
You are skating very close to the formula of the condemned heretic Arius, 'there was when the Son was not'.
"Marlowe, I think you just got called a heretic. With finesse, of course, but the meaning is clear.
"It happens to me all the time.""
Well, yes, but you're a well meaning, irenic sort of heretic who has enrolled in COE and is beginning to read The Fathers, so its OK. :)
Why didnt he call the woman at the well Daughter
Why didn't He call Jairus's daughter Daughter. He called her Maid
Do you think it just a coincidence or a formality He called that young woman Daughter
Boy, it appears sola scriptura aint for you
So when the prophets called Israel collectively, the Daughter of Zion, did they father each of them? Or give birth to them? Or what exactly?
. The woman at the well was not a Daughter of Israel.
Why not call her "Maid"? The meaning is just akin to "little girl", perfectly normal.
No, fanciful, personal interpretations of the bible with no basis whatsoever, is not for me. That is why if I had a teacher like you, I would search the scriptures to see if what you say is true, and then I would flee your church forthwith.
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