Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children
By John-Henry Westen
NEW YORK, December 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A review of New Line Cinema's The Nativity story by Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger of the Franciscans of the Immaculate in the United States, points out that the film, which opened December 1, misinterprets scripture from a Catholic perspective.
While Fr. Geiger admits that he found the film is "in general, to be a pious and reverential presentation of the Christmas mystery." He adds however, that "not only does the movie get the Virgin Birth wrong, it thoroughly Protestantizes its portrayal of Our Lady."
In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible predicts the coming of the Messiah saying: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel." Fr. Geiger, in an video blog post, explains that the Catholic Church has taught for over 2000 years that the referenced Scripture showed that Mary would not only conceive the child miraculously, but would give birth to the child miraculously - keeping her physical virginity intact during the birth.
The film, he suggests, in portraying a natural, painful birth of Christ, thus denies the truth of the virginal and miraculous birth of Christ, which, he notes, the Fathers of the Church compared to light passing through glass without breaking it. Fr. Geiger quoted the fourth century St. Augustine on the matter saying. "That same power which brought the body of the young man through closed doors, brought the body of the infant forth from the inviolate womb of the mother."
Fr. Geiger contrasts The Nativity Story with The Passion of the Christ, noting that with the latter, Catholics and Protestants could agree to support it. He suggests, however, that the latter is "a virtual coup against Catholic Mariology".
The characterization of Mary further debases her as Fr. Geiger relates in his review. "Mary in The Nativity lacks depth and stature, and becomes the subject of a treatment on teenage psychology."
Beyond the non-miraculous birth, the biggest let-down for Catholics comes from Director Catherine Hardwicke's own words. Hardwicke explains her rationale in an interview: "We wanted her [Mary] to feel accessible to a young teenager, so she wouldn't seem so far away from their life that it had no meaning for them. I wanted them to see Mary as a girl, as a teenager at first, not perfectly pious from the very first moment. So you see Mary going through stuff with her parents where they say, 'You're going to marry this guy, and these are the rules you have to follow.' Her father is telling her that she's not to have sex with Joseph for a year-and Joseph is standing right there."
Comments Fr. Geiger, "it is rather disconcerting to see Our Blessed Mother portrayed with 'attitude;' asserting herself in a rather anachronistic rebellion against an arranged marriage, choosing her words carefully with her parents, and posing meaningful silences toward those who do not understand her."
Fr. Geiger adds that the film also contains "an overly graphic scene of St. Elizabeth giving birth," which is "just not suitable, in my opinion, for young children to view."
Despite its flaws Fr. Geiger, after viewing the film, also has some good things to say about it. "Today, one must commend any sincere attempt to put Christ back into Christmas, and this film is certainly one of them," he says. "The Nativity Story in no way compares to the masterpiece which is The Passion of the Christ, but it is at least sincere, untainted by cynicism, and a worthy effort by Hollywood to end the prejudice against Christianity in the public square."
And, in addition to a good portrait of St. Joseph, the film offers "at least one cinematic and spiritual triumph" in portraying the Visitation of Mary to St. Elizabeth. "Although the Magnificat is relegated to a kind of epilogue at the movie's end, the meeting between Mary and Elizabeth is otherwise faithful to the scriptures and quite poignant. In a separate scene, the two women experience the concurrent movement of their children in utero and share deeply in each other's joy. I can't think of another piece of celluloid that illustrates the dignity of the unborn child better than this."
See Fr. Geiger's full review here:
http://airmaria.com/
This whole Scripture twisting is so dangerous because it leads people to believe that we cannot lose our Salvation no matter what we do
The other aspect of this is the belief that there is nothing we can ever do to please God.
This often brings a person to think God will send to Heaven the fallen away because they ONCE asked Christ into their lives.
Jesus,s teaching on losing Salvation says otherwise
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Here is a quote from a person you would call a cult figure.
He was also the first to present the 27 books of the new testament.
He is Saint Anthanasius-he was Catholic!
Here is what he says about Tradition
“But what is also to the point, let us note that the very TRADITION, teaching and faith of the CATHOLIC CHURCH from the beginning, WHICH THE LORD GAVE, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1,28, 359 A.D.
Here is what he says about losing Salvation
“It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul’s instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him.” Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362).
Perhaps you should ask God why he would allow Bible Canon to be handled by someone like Anthanasius if he was part of a cult!
Here is some more writings from the early Christians on the topic of losing Salvation
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110).
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).
“And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life.” Hermas, The Shephard, 3:8:7 (A.D. 155).
“[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1 (A.D. 156).
“Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls.” Tatian the Syrian, To the Greeks, 13 (A.D. 175).
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180).
“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204).
“Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, ‘He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,’ whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.” Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251).
“Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: —I will dwell in them and will walk in them. Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:—Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ ... And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it.” Aphrahat, Demonstrations, 6:14 (A.D. 345).
“Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, I:4 (A.D. 350).
What’s a Pelagian? Speak english to me please, I’ve had a rough weekend (smile).
I was splashed as an infant and baptized again as an adult. Wanna cover both ends, you know (smile).
Hosepipe, you are making things up as you go along. The Hebrew word used is Xpn (nephesh), which simply means life, "living being."
It is most definitely not limited to human beings as you seem to imply, but to all the living beings. That this is indeed so is obvious from the Bible, beginning with Genesis (Gen 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 1:30 for starters!). In each of those verses is nephesh, and so is in Gen 2:7 where God breathes life into Adam's inanimate nostrils and Adam becomes a living being.
What differentiates Adam from animals is that he was created with a potential they don't have, and that is in God's image and likeness. Those are human capacities. We can become like God and we can become an image of God if we cleave to God. Animals can't. But that is because we were created as rational and moral beings, not because God breathed something other than life in us.
The Bible really is all about code/metaphor
Well, there is nothing metaphorical about nepehesh.
The Septuagint (LXX) uses the Greek word ψυχέ (psuché), which simply means life (of all living creatures), a vital "force."
Both Hebrew and koine Greek differentiate nephesh and psuché (soul) from the spirit.
Spirit sustains our nephesh or psuche (soul), which sustains our body. Once the soul separates from the Spirit, it dies and that in turn causes body to die. The fact that we physically die means that our nature (psuchesarkos) is separated from God (without God's grace). Salvation is re-connecting with the life-giving, soul-sustaining force and continuing to live (being under grace).
Thus, our soul by itself is not immortal unless it is under grace. This life is our chance to reconnect with God and be saved (from death). The nephesh of the repenting believers will continue to live until such time that a new bodies are recreated (there is no reincarnation because there is no loss of identity).
But the continued existence of nephesh after the body dies is "unnatural" and by necessity unpleasant, uncomfortable. This discomfort is attenuated by our prayers for the departed.
The eternal death will be that of a resurrected man who remained separated from God until his physical death. There is no repentance after that, for man shall die once and is judged immediately (cf Heb 9:27). Hence the importance of true and complete repentance in this lifetime.
Thats NOT gnostic.. The gnostics were/Are too caught up in fatalism and Flesh
That was made in reference to your suggestion that our souls were sent to our bodies, which implies pre-existence of souls, which is not Christian but explicitly Gnostic teaching (Origen) and pagan (neo-Platonic).
Therefore you can be a heretic and still be born again.. yes even [sic] a gnostic...
No, absolutely not. No one who is with the Spirit will teach false doctrines and therefore cannot remain a heretic (which is what Gnostics are, btw).
We know this because we know that Christ is true God (because of His Resurrection). The Nicene Creed so states correctly. Therefore, by worshiping Christ we worship true God, and not an idol. All other religions worship some sort of an idol to a greater or lesser degree.
Jesus existed long before Mary was even born..
No, the Word exists in His divine nature eternally; His human nature did not exist from all eternity. Our Lord Jesus Christ is Word Incarnate, human and divine, indivisible and unconfused, and His natures in perfect harmony.
Why Kosta?.... you... appear to do it all the time..
You yourself are a heretic to some christians..
I don't hold it against you.. spirituality is not composed of rational thinking adults..
When rational thinking apostles came to Jesus wondering who would be greatest in heaven.. You know, non heretics, with tenor.. Jesus grabbed a little child and told them unless you become one of these, you will not make it to heaven.. Hello!!.. someone must have missed this metaphor..
You can be a heretic Kosta(as you are to some) and I'll still deal with you..
The knock on my clubhouse door is 2 knocks, a scratching sound, and 2 more knocks..
But be advised the bread and wine is just bread and wine..
WE know the bread and wine is just an excuse to entertain heretics occasionally..
You can pick your nose but you cannot pick your family..
LOL! It's obvious you neither know the origin or the true menaing of the word "heretic."
and I'll still deal with you..
Oh, really? Is that a threat?
WE know the bread and wine is just an excuse to entertain heretics occasionally..
I am sure various Protestant sects do it all the time...
You can pick your nose but you cannot pick your family..
Nuts! Did I say I detest nuts?
-OR- worse I DO.. and embrace it..
Kinda pulls the rug of authority from under clergical heirarchys...
Jesus was murdered because of and by clerical authoritys..
Clerical authority's trying to hijack first Jesus' and then the Paraclete's(Holy Spirits) authority will be dealt with harshly I believe.. The first(clergy), will be last and last(heretics), first.. Its all there metaphorically.. Also the seven church's in asia(Rev.) speak somewhat of this..
Not heretics are heretics.. and some faithful are faithful to the wrong things.. Dogma is the dead letter.. If you are not a heretic in some things, then something might be wrong with you.. You then might be a spiritual cadaver..
I just love you!
Good-bye hosepipe.
You said “”He remains a saved person, however, since he is one with Christ (Eph.5) and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph.4:30”” This whole Scripture twisting is so dangerous because it leads people to believe that we cannot lose our Salvation no matter what we do
A person can't lose his salvation-that is the point!
A person can lose his life and have no rewards at the Judgement seat of Christ but he remains saved.
The other aspect of this is the belief that there is nothing we can ever do to please God.
Now, where did I ever say anything like that?
Don't be creating straw man arguments.
We are suppose to bear fruit and have rewards at the Judgement seat of Christ.
This often brings a person to think God will send to Heaven the fallen away because they ONCE asked Christ into their lives.
If a person has personally accepted Christ as their saviour, believing in His death, burial and resurrection for their own personal sins, they will be saved.
A person may 'fall away' after that, but God then deals with him as a child and disciplines him as such (Heb.12)
Jesus,s teaching on losing Salvation says otherwise
Actually it doesn't.
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Yes, and if it does the Lord will remove it physically (Jn.15:2)
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Because they are were never really saved.
They will be those who are depending on their works to save them.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Few are chosen, because few respond to the call.
Most take the 'broad way' to destruction and reject the free gift of salvation, depending on their own righteousness to save them.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
They have no root because they did not really believe.
Many like what they hear about Christ, but never take the actual step in believing in Him as their personal saviour.
Many are afraid of leaving their religion and prefer the glory of men rather than the glory of God.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Nothing is said about the steward losing his eternal salvation, only his place as steward.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
Yes, but we can never get away from our heavenly Father, since He holds us in His hand (Jn.10:28-29)
Parables are made to illustrate doctrine, not establish them.
That parable shows God unconditional love for the sinner, not the loss of eternal security.
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
Judas was not saved (Jn.13), he was likened to a devil.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
Actually that verse shows temporal punishment for not producing fruit.
Being 'cut off' is the sin unto death (1Jn.5:16), or as Paul states, 'many sleep'
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
Once again, Judas was not a saved man.
He was chosen as an Apostle, but never believed in Christ.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
Anyone who comes to Christ, He won't cast out-ever!
You become His Body and Bride and He can't deny Himself (Eph.5, 2Tim.2)
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
Judas did not 'fall away' he was never saved.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
No one has to 'continue to believe' to stay saved.
It is a one time event that leads to one being born again.
Once you are, you are now a child of God and that can never be changed, even by you.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
Once the person responds to the drawing, then he doesn't need to be drawn anymore, he has arrived.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
And where does it say that?
It doesn't so stop reading into scripture what you want to be there.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
He warns the Ephesians that they can lose their candlestick which is their light on earth, not in heaven.
That has nothing to do with the individual believer.
Here is a quote from a person you would call a cult figure. He was also the first to present the 27 books of the new testament. He is Saint Anthanasius-he was Catholic! Here is what he says about Tradition “But what is also to the point, let us note that the very TRADITION, teaching and faith of the CATHOLIC CHURCH from the beginning, WHICH THE LORD GAVE, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.” St. Athanasius, Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1,28, 359 A.D. Here is what he says about losing Salvation “It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul’s instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him.” Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362). Perhaps you should ask God why he would allow Bible Canon to be handled by someone like Anthanasius if he was part of a cult! Here is some more writings from the early Christians on the topic of losing Salvation “And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110). “Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” Didache, 16 (A.D. 90). “And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life.” Hermas, The Shephard, 3:8:7 (A.D. 155). “[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1 (A.D. 156). “Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls.” Tatian the Syrian, To the Greeks, 13 (A.D. 175). “Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180). “But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204). “Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, ‘He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,’ whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.” Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251). “Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: —I will dwell in them and will walk in them. Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:—Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ ... And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it.” Aphrahat, Demonstrations, 6:14 (A.D. 345). “Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, I:4 (A.D. 350).
As for those who you have quoted, where they depart from scripture, as they do in this case, they are irrelevant.
As for Athanasius, he did not create the Canon, he only recoginzed it.
Now, as for eternal security, here are three verses that prove it.
Each member of the Trinity are involved in keeping the believer secure in his salvation.
In Rom.8:38-39, Paul states nothing can separate us from of God the Father.
In Eph.4:30, the Holy Spirit seals the believer.
In Jude, Christ is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
No one can get saved by works, no one stay saved by works.
Works only show that one is saved 'I will shew you my faith by my works' (James.2:18)
In order for you to know my beef with Charles Finney and how he ties to Pelagius, you have to have a general understanding of where the church was and where it is today. You’re asking a lot for me to give you the history of the church succinctly but here’s go.
Pelagius was a monk around 350 AD who denied the existence of original sin (man was tainted with Adam's sin) among other things. The most destructive view of Pelagius was his view that man had a free will to do good or evil apart from divine grace. IOW, in the Pelagius view, man was capable of choosing God and choosing not to sin. He didn’t need help from God.
Up until this point the church had always held that God empowered man. Augustine, and the church, declared Pelagius ideas about original sin and his views on man's free will to be heresy. Augustine (and the church) asserted all things come to us by God's grace including our salvation.
One would have thought that that would be the end of it but Pelagius student, John Cassian, took Pelagius' works and made modification to the doctrine into what is now known as Semi-Pelagian. This view emphasized the role of free will in that the first steps of salvation is in the power of the individual, without the need for divine grace. In other words, man makes a decision for God and then is helped to live his life by God.
Semi-Pelagian was condemned heretical by the Council of Orange of 529 AD. The Council of Orange once again affirmed that only through God’s grace that are we capable of knowing Him. Although Cassian's view was considered heretical, Cassian remained in the Church and, subsequently became a saint due to some things that he did for the Pope. His view never formally died out in the Church but it festered along with Augustine's view on divine grace.
Eventually, Augustine's view that we are saved by grace and not by man's will became obscured. But to say that the Reformation was centered on the free will of man would not be totally true (although I think it played more of a part than most historians give it credit). Other issues caused the future Reformers to go back to reexamine the writings of the early fathers in light of what was being taught by the Church. Primarily the Protestant Reformers drew upon the writings of Augustine. Many of the early Protestant creeds and confessions (London Baptists, Westminster, Belgic, etc.) centers on Augustine’s belief that God saves men. IOW, God choose us to be part of His kingdom. He opened our eyes, gave us faith, and set our feet so that we could live for Him. We did not choose Him but He chose us. We were dead in sin. We now have been born again because of God. Man's capability to freely choose only come in to play in that man will always make bad choices unless God changes men to make good choices. We chose God because He gave us that power. And we can make choices now because He has restored us to Himself and guides us.
The Roman Catholics had all but abandoned the view that God saved man apart from himself. Their view became a still modified Semi-Pelagian view that God reveals himself to man and man makes a choice. Man cooperates with God. This is documented in the Council of Trent which formally abandons Augustine’s view of salvation.
It would have been easy if this would have been the defining distinction between Protestants and Catholics. Unfortunately, about 150 years after the Reformation, a Protestant by the name of Joseph Arminian came on the scene. Arminian’s writings are rather obscured, but his followers formed in Protestantism what was known as the Remonstrant. The Remonstrants essentially stated the same thing the Roman Catholics were stating; that the fall of man was man’s choosing and man could be reconciled to God, with God’s help, simply by choosing God. But it was man's choice. This was deemed heretical by the Protestants who, once again, insisted that God choose and elect men, not the other way.
Charles Finney did not consider this at all heretical and, to his credit, said so. Even though he was a Presbyterian minister, he held to a Roman Catholic view on many issues including man’s ability to choose his salvation. While he might have been considered by some such as Billy Graham, as one of the great evangelists, his doctrine is totally inconsistent with what Protestantism was originally about; God saving men.
Charles Finney’s Influence on American Evangelicalism by Bob DeWaay
Certainly...
Dear Brother,"the gate is norrow"!
In your interpretations of Scripture the gate to heaven is WIDE ,its the cakewalk and the gate to hell is NARROW-hardly anyone will go into hell.
You have turned our Lord,s words upside down!
I,ll pray for you.
Darn.. Was it something I said..
Maybe the cadaver crack?..
Wow, thanks for all your effort. There’s lots I don’t know. This is very enlightning. Bless you. Maryxxx
That is a gross misrepresentation (and, of course, you copied it from Wikipedia almost word by word; btw, Wikipedia has been already cited as a source of many erroneous and misleading entries).
The Orthodox Church states
Semi-Pelagian was condemned heretical by the Council of Orange of 529 AD...Although Cassian's view was considered heretical, Cassian remained in the Church and, subsequently became a saint due to some things that he did for the Pope
The Council of Orange was a local council and could not proclaim anyone heretical on behalf of the whole Church. You have been shown this to be so in the past but you persist in your error. The fact that +Cassian remained in the Church is no different than +Augustine remaining in the Church, as both have taught things which was not universally accepted in the entire Church.
The Church always held that our salvation is incumbent on Resurrection, and God's grace. Since Pelagian denied grace, he was condemned (anathematized) as a heretic. Semi-Pelagianism does not deny grace and is therefore not a heresy.
That's good, and I was really zooming in on the Latins. :) I see some pretty puzzling examples there. I know there is "Mary save us", but we have talked about it, and that one doesn't bend me out of shape anymore. :)
First of all Harley, the early church did NOT deny Free Will
St. Justin Martyr
First Apology (2nd century)
Chapter 43. Responsibility asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. BUT IT IS BY FREE CHOICE they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who CHOOSE the good have worthy rewards, and they who CHOOSE the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . .”
“If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.”
From Saint Augustine -A.D. 426 or 427
On Grace and Free Will
Chapter 2
“Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.”
Chapter 4
“”What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means “the happy man,” of whom the Psalmist says that “his will has been the law of the Lord”? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, “Be not overcome of evil,” Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, “Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding;” and, “Reject not the counsels of your mother;” Proverbs 1:8 and, “Be not wise in your own conceit;” Proverbs 3:7 and, “Despise not the chastening of the Lord;” Proverbs 3:11 and, “Forget not my law;” Proverbs 3:1 and, “Forbear not to do good to the poor;” Proverbs 3:27 and, “Devise not evil against your friend;” Proverbs 3:29 and, “Give no heed to a worthless woman;” Proverbs 5:2 and, “He is not inclined to understand how to do good;” and, “They refused to attend to my counsel;” Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will””
Harley,
Perhaps if I can find the time I,ll post more of the early fathers and free will.
I think if that ole spinmiester John Calvin were alive today he would be a Democrat -:)
Hope all is well with you and your family.
I wish you a Blessed day!
Free discloser for Marysecretary; John Cassian is highly regarded in the Orthodox Church as much as Augustine was in the western church. Pelagius believed there was no such think as Original Sin. Neither does the Orthodox. I would be interested in knowing if Cassian believed in Original Sin.
If one understands Augustine and the western view position of Original Sin, then they understand that no matter how much God shines a light into our dark hearts, we will never take that step. God has to spiritually change us to want to take that step. That is what the difference is all about.
"...the ministry of our reconciliation with God is also contained in them (the two sacraments)."
"The ministry of our reconciliation." Isn't that a lovely phrase? The administration of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit reconciles us daily and makes us increasingly right with God, in part through the application of the sacraments.
Here's where the Reformers broke with the errors of Rome and returned to the early church's understanding of the sacraments as a sign and seal of God's salvation, but certainly not salvation itself. Salvation is by Christ's sacrifice alone. The sacraments are part of our sanctification, not our justification. As Calvin rightly noted, "When martyrs shut up in prison CANNOT take the external sign, shall we say that those in whom Christ is triumphantly magnified are without Christ?"
Calvin -- ""[T]he sacraments are neither empty figures nor mere external badges of piety, but seals of the divine promises . . . they are instruments by which God acts effectually in his elect . . . although they are signs distinct from the things signified, they are neither disjoined nor separated from them."
Calvin knew well the errors of Rome. He witnessed the bartering of the sacraments and the foolish magic that the church stubbornly insisted occurred during transubstantiation and baptismal regeneration, neither of which are taught in the Bible. Calvin, like all the Reformers, rejected such anti-Scriptural beliefs and returned the church to a correct understanding of the two sacraments instituted by Christ -- the Lord's Supper and Baptism, both as signs and seals of the covenant, freely given to God's children as a further display of His gracious love for them.
When I asked my husband once if he worried about me when his faith was so much stronger than my own, he said he relied a lot on 1 Corinthians 7:14...
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."
This verse acknowledges that God creates families as well as believers, and that those family ties mean something. In his commentary on that verse, Calvin writes...
But how will this statement correspond with what he teaches elsewhere - that we are all by nature children of wrath; (Ephesians 2:3;) or with the statement of David - Behold I was conceived in sin, etc. (Psalms 51:5.) I answer, that there is a universal propagation of sin and damnation throughout the seed of Adam, and all, therefore, to a man, are included in this curse, whether they are the offspring of believers or of the ungodly; for it is not as regenerated by the Spirit, that believers beget children after the flesh. The natural condition, therefore, of all is alike, so that they are liable equally to sin and to eternal death. As to the Apostle's assigning here a peculiar privilege to the children of believers, this flows from the blessing of the covenant, by the intervention of which the curse of nature is removed; and those who were by nature unholy are consecrated to God by grace. Hence Paul argues, in his Epistle to the Romans, (Romans 11:16,) that the whole of Abraham's posterity are holy, because God had made a covenant of life with him - If the root be holy, says he, then the branches are holy also. And God calls all that were descended from Israel his sons now that the partition is broken down, the same covenant of salvation that was entered into with the seed of Abraham is communicated to us. But if the children of believers are exempted from the common lot of mankind, so as to be set apart to the Lord, why should we keep them back from the sign? If the Lord admits them into the Church by his word, why should we refuse them the sign? In what respects the offspring of the pious are holy, while many of them become degenerate, you will find explained in the tenth and eleventh chapters of the Epistle to the Romans; and I have handled this point there." "The passage, then, is a remarkable one, and drawn from the depths of theology; for it teaches, that the children of the pious are set apart from others by a sort of exclusive privilege, so as to be reckoned holy in the Church.
So now I'm off to read what he says on Romans 10 and 11. 8~)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.