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To: HarleyD; Marysecretary
Regarding free will....

First of all Harley, the early church did NOT deny Free Will

St. Justin Martyr
First Apology (2nd century)
Chapter 43. Responsibility asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. BUT IT IS BY FREE CHOICE they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who CHOOSE the good have worthy rewards, and they who CHOOSE the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII

“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . .”

“If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.”

From Saint Augustine -A.D. 426 or 427
On Grace and Free Will

Chapter 2
“Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.”

Chapter 4
“”What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means “the happy man,” of whom the Psalmist says that “his will has been the law of the Lord”? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, “Be not overcome of evil,” Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, “Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding;” and, “Reject not the counsels of your mother;” Proverbs 1:8 and, “Be not wise in your own conceit;” Proverbs 3:7 and, “Despise not the chastening of the Lord;” Proverbs 3:11 and, “Forget not my law;” Proverbs 3:1 and, “Forbear not to do good to the poor;” Proverbs 3:27 and, “Devise not evil against your friend;” Proverbs 3:29 and, “Give no heed to a worthless woman;” Proverbs 5:2 and, “He is not inclined to understand how to do good;” and, “They refused to attend to my counsel;” Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will””
Harley,

Perhaps if I can find the time I,ll post more of the early fathers and free will.

I think if that ole spinmiester John Calvin were alive today he would be a Democrat -:)

Hope all is well with you and your family.

I wish you a Blessed day!

14,578 posted on 05/14/2007 10:52:33 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi; Marysecretary
First of all Harley, the early church did NOT deny Free Will

No one is saying the early church, or anyone for that matter, has denied "free" will. Here is what the Westminster Confess states about free will:

Unless I'm mistaken, it would be #3 that we would disagree upon. Man cannot "cooperate" if he is "adverse" to any spiritual good. The scripture reference for this portion is as follows:


14,582 posted on 05/14/2007 11:07:54 AM PDT by HarleyD
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