Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Jo, our premises are how we pray and how we believe. If one believes that God has from all eternity predestined everyone to either be saved or damned, then his or her life will be very much affected by such formulation.
Likewise, if one believes that Christ's sacrifice paid for all our debts past, present and future, then his or her attitude towards sin will reflect that belief.
I am sure you clearly recognize how seriously such beliefs affect the way some people believe and how they go through life. For, if they have been condmened before they were even born, what incentive will they have to cling to God?
And, if they feel that Christ "paid my bill," what incentive will one have not to sin? After all, no matter what I do, then, the bill is paid!
But, the scriptre tells us on more than one occasion that we will be judged for our deeds. If they were 'paid for" what's the point of judgment? If we have been 'saved' from all eternity, why the judgment?
Deeds require work, so if we are judged on what we do, then all is not paid for, or forgiven. Rather, God gives everyone a chance to redeem himself, even as unworthy as our attempts may be, to do so thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
Work is required because faith-based work is our repentance. The debt we owe cannot be repaid. But God is willing to forgive and forget, if we go about our lives in repenetance.
This is not a presumption, Jo. It's what we know from Church history, Church documents and liturgical practices.For instance, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom contains numerous references to the Holy Virgin, but the Catholic Mass doesn't (I am not sure if she is even mentioned in the Mass). Thus, it is not a presumption, but what we know.
St. Irenaeus actually did bring in a novelty (c. 180 AD) when he for the first time actually identified authors of the Gospels as the Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Up to that time, Gospels were quoted giving reference only to Christ "Our Lord said" etc. or as anonymous "memoirs" of the Apsotles (cf St. Justin the Martyr).
Dear Precious Brother [somewhat tearfully—with affection],
I have long respected your ferver, though I may have occasionally felt like throttling you for some of your fervent statements! LOL.
I am thankful that our Heavenly Father, Lord, Savior, Spirit are larger than our constructions on reality—even on Biblical reality. We all see through the glass darkly, dimly, fuzzily.
I shall be very blessed to rejoice arm in arm with you in our Heavenly abode.
And shall redouble my earnest efforts to see you as and feel toward you as and relate to you as a cherished brother here in this life and here on FR. Feel free to exhort me when you find me doing otherwise.
Praise God!!!
Naturally - I believe we agree. My point was that although St. Irenaeus was the first to write about the "New Eve", it seems natural to believe that others were teaching it BEFORE he wrote about it.
Yes, we do mention the Virgin Mary at EVERY Mass. We ask her and the rest of the saints to pray for us on several occasions.
St. Irenaeus actually did bring in a novelty (c. 180 AD) when he for the first time actually identified authors of the Gospels as the Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Up to that time, Gospels were quoted giving reference only to Christ "Our Lord said" etc. or as anonymous "memoirs" of the Apsotles (cf St. Justin the Martyr).
It is hard to make that claim, because he certainly could have been relating a "tradition" of whom the author was. Calling the Gospels the "memoirs" does not rule out that the authors were known, or at least many had a strong opinion...
Regards
I don't think this has anything to do with whether Hell is a place or a state of existence or both. You have discussed WHO will "go" there, not whether one "goes" or not.
Regards
Joe,you said
“My point was that although St. Irenaeus was the first to write about the “New Eve”, it seems natural to believe that others were teaching it BEFORE he wrote about it.”
I believe that we see Mary replacing Eve in writings's Earlier then Irenaueus.
Even though they don,t actually say “NEW EVE”,you can clearly see this is what they thought in the following Writings
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
“[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.” Protoevangelium of John, 6:2 (A.D. 150).
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
Of course we also have a mountain of scripture typology that also clearly supports this as well
I wish you both a Blessed day!
Here is a few examples of the typology....
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42 *1
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
I can only wish the same to both of you. This being the Great (Holy) Week makes my joy ever so greater that we can all find forgiveness in our hearts. Glory to Him!
Amen. To God be the glory!
Yes, of course, we cannot with any certainty claim to the contrary anything that is not written, or for that matter with equal certainty, claim that it was. We can perhaps presume and not much more than that.
Yes, we do mention the Virgin Mary at EVERY Mass
I couldn't imagine otherwise, but wasn't sure. Thank you for educating me.
It is hard to make that claim, because he certainly could have been relating a "tradition" of whom the author was
Actually 1 Clement quotes from vatrious Gospel verses but never mentions any of the authors. It simply says "lord Jesus Christ said..."
Whatever the custom was, +Ireanaeus found it necessary to credit the authors. Others before him apparently didn't.
It's called the Holy Spirit. Once indwelt you are a changed person. When convicted by the Holy Spirit it can be overwhelming for a believer.
I know trusting Jesus alone may seem radical to those that find comfort in a large church, but wasn't that what the Apostles did?
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I understand that. Yet, we continue to sin, because love does not compel.
I know trusting Jesus alone may seem radical to those that find comfort in a large church, but wasn't that what the Apostles did?
Trust is fine but it says nothing about one's faith. It's what he does with his faith that will be judged.
It's not enough to just say "I love you."
Likewise. Thanks thanks.
I am sure you are well aware that the Church Fathers often did not "cite" the Scripture chapter and verse - they merely relate "It is written...". The editors of the various books on the Church Fathers add the Scriptural locations of their citations for us who have not memorized the Bible yet!
Of course, I agree with you that the names of the writers of the Gospels are based on tradition.
Regards
Roger. Take care and have a Happy Easter.
Joe
A blessed Pascha of our Lord to you too, Jo.
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