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To: jo kus
That is presuming that no one actually spoken theologically about Mary UNTIL St. Irenaeus WROTE "Against Heresies". I think it is safe to say that he was not an innovator

This is not a presumption, Jo. It's what we know from Church history, Church documents and liturgical practices.For instance, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom contains numerous references to the Holy Virgin, but the Catholic Mass doesn't (I am not sure if she is even mentioned in the Mass). Thus, it is not a presumption, but what we know.

St. Irenaeus actually did bring in a novelty (c. 180 AD) when he for the first time actually identified authors of the Gospels as the Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Up to that time, Gospels were quoted giving reference only to Christ "Our Lord said" etc. or as anonymous "memoirs" of the Apsotles (cf St. Justin the Martyr).

12,202 posted on 04/03/2007 7:52:16 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
This is not a presumption, Jo. It's what we know from Church history, Church documents and liturgical practices.For instance, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom contains numerous references to the Holy Virgin, but the Catholic Mass doesn't (I am not sure if she is even mentioned in the Mass). Thus, it is not a presumption, but what we know.

Naturally - I believe we agree. My point was that although St. Irenaeus was the first to write about the "New Eve", it seems natural to believe that others were teaching it BEFORE he wrote about it.

Yes, we do mention the Virgin Mary at EVERY Mass. We ask her and the rest of the saints to pray for us on several occasions.

St. Irenaeus actually did bring in a novelty (c. 180 AD) when he for the first time actually identified authors of the Gospels as the Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Up to that time, Gospels were quoted giving reference only to Christ "Our Lord said" etc. or as anonymous "memoirs" of the Apsotles (cf St. Justin the Martyr).

It is hard to make that claim, because he certainly could have been relating a "tradition" of whom the author was. Calling the Gospels the "memoirs" does not rule out that the authors were known, or at least many had a strong opinion...

Regards

12,205 posted on 04/03/2007 9:02:04 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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