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To: jo kus
The idea of separation from God with Hell should be obvious, whether one can think abstractly or prefers anthropomophic language

Jo, our premises are how we pray and how we believe. If one believes that God has from all eternity predestined everyone to either be saved or damned, then his or her life will be very much affected by such formulation.

Likewise, if one believes that Christ's sacrifice paid for all our debts past, present and future, then his or her attitude towards sin will reflect that belief.

I am sure you clearly recognize how seriously such beliefs affect the way some people believe and how they go through life. For, if they have been condmened before they were even born, what incentive will they have to cling to God?

And, if they feel that Christ "paid my bill," what incentive will one have not to sin? After all, no matter what I do, then, the bill is paid!

But, the scriptre tells us on more than one occasion that we will be judged for our deeds. If they were 'paid for" what's the point of judgment? If we have been 'saved' from all eternity, why the judgment?

Deeds require work, so if we are judged on what we do, then all is not paid for, or forgiven. Rather, God gives everyone a chance to redeem himself, even as unworthy as our attempts may be, to do so thanks to Christ's sacrifice.

Work is required because faith-based work is our repentance. The debt we owe cannot be repaid. But God is willing to forgive and forget, if we go about our lives in repenetance.

12,201 posted on 04/03/2007 7:43:39 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Jo, our premises are how we pray and how we believe. If one believes that God has from all eternity predestined everyone to either be saved or damned, then his or her life will be very much affected by such formulation...

I don't think this has anything to do with whether Hell is a place or a state of existence or both. You have discussed WHO will "go" there, not whether one "goes" or not.

Regards

12,206 posted on 04/03/2007 9:04:09 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper
And, if they feel that Christ "paid my bill," what incentive will one have not to sin? After all, no matter what I do, then, the bill is paid!

It's called the Holy Spirit. Once indwelt you are a changed person. When convicted by the Holy Spirit it can be overwhelming for a believer.

I know trusting Jesus alone may seem radical to those that find comfort in a large church, but wasn't that what the Apostles did?

12,213 posted on 04/03/2007 2:04:29 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: kosta50; jo kus
Jo, our premises are how we pray and how we believe. If one believes that God has from all eternity predestined everyone to either be saved or damned, then his or her life will be very much affected by such formulation.

How do you figure that a person's life is affected after coming to a belief in double predestination? We who believe in it obviously already believe in single predestination, which involves assurance, and we also believe that we are to treat every other person, who is lost, as one of the elect, e.g., we are to witness to them. I am a mere anecdote, but since I went from single to double, (right here on FR), I haven't treated anyone any differently, and I don't think my life, or outlook on it, has changed at all. I just think I have been showed a doctrine that is closer to scripture, and I have accepted it.

Likewise, if one believes that Christ's sacrifice paid for all our debts past, present and future, then his or her attitude towards sin will reflect that belief.

No, not in the vast majority of cases. Mostly non-believers (but perhaps professing Christians) will sink into the trap you suppose. True believers will also know the further teachings against that trap. Some Protestants, like Rick Warren, won't talk about sin, to their SHAME. However, those who really believe in Sola Scriptura do face the issue. My pastor preaches on it and gets in our faces about it, all the time.

I am sure you clearly recognize how seriously such beliefs affect the way some people believe and how they go through life. For, if they have been condemned before they were even born, what incentive will they have to cling to God?

But nobody knows who is condemned, including the elect. That is why we treat EVERYBODY, in witnessing and ministry, as if they were of the elect.

And, if they feel that Christ "paid my bill," what incentive will one have not to sin? After all, no matter what I do, then, the bill is paid!

Christ DID "pay our bill". But part of our salvation is an irresistible leading toward the scriptures, all of them. If they are unavailable, then to their principles. God removed from the elect a heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. We are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). The true believer does not sit on his laurels. The seal of the Holy Spirit prevents this.

But, the Scripture tells us on more than one occasion that we will be judged for our deeds. If they were 'paid for" what's the point of judgment?

Two different judgments. One for salvation, and one for rewards in Heaven.

Work is required because faith-based work is our repentance. The debt we owe cannot be repaid. But God is willing to forgive and forget, if we go about our lives in repentance.

When it comes to whether we are fit for Heaven, God does not "forgive and forget", in this context. He does not just "let us slide" if we do "X" number of good deeds. That would make a mockery of His justice. No, but His sacrifice on the cross WAS a FULL payment and satisfaction for our sins. THAT is what makes His elect fit for Heaven, not the triflings we perform here on earth. What are they to God in exchange for being in His presence for eternity? Nothing. There is nothing we have, there is nothing we can do (as you say). Only Christ could do it for us.

12,499 posted on 04/13/2007 5:20:18 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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