Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Thank you. That's all you can say about the verses I used?
It sure is depressing and worrisome, one day all is good and the next day our Saviour sacrificed himself for nothing
The Bible tells us that the heaven rejoices even if one lost soul returns to God. He is impartial and doesn't do the numbers game.
has anyone said that it was a mistranslation when Jesus said "it is finished"?
I am not sure what you are aiming at. "Finished" to me means that he completed that which He came to accomplish 7#151; to fulfill the Law.
The same way as you do. The difference is that the Church always taught that our salvation is neither a simple gift nor entirely work, but a combination of both. This does not diminish God, because it is His will that we can "choose life." (cf Deut 30:19)
Not any more than saying He allows evil.
That's not comparable. The only way God creates evil under Reformed theology is by placing an artificial condition upon God. Of course Reformers don't do that, only critics do. How convenient. God has no duty to prevent evil from happening, yet upon hearing that Reformers believe God controls everything, critics immediately place that duty upon God. This is very different from God's nonexistent choices, if they are based on foreknowledge. Nothing need be added.
What law is that?
So, you are saying God can't allow free will but He can allow evil? Aren't you placing finite choices on God's repertoir? It's not His 'duty"; it's His will.
You mean 7#151;? That's "Murphy's Law." :) A typo that should have looked like mdash "—" instead of 7#151;. :)
Other than that I am sure you know I was referirng to the Law of the Prophets as in Mat 5:17.
I'm asking you what was the law that Jesus fulfilled in Matthew 5:17?
Free will is a myth; a phantom of our vanity. It's God's world and everything contained therein.
This is good news for those who believe in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world who know their salvation is due to His perfect sacrifice alone.
No, our freedom is a gift of God. Captivity is not borne of love.
"So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants" (Deu 30:19)
The authority/validity of the Law or the Prophets of the Old Testament.
But what was the Law specifically? What did the Law say that Christ was fulfilling?
I spoke earlier of "free will" being within parameters. Thus, the lost are "free" to sin (from the human POV), and they do. God allows it. It is not His duty to stop it, and neither is it His will to stop it because He doesn't. God maintains FULL control of everything, but He does not zap people causing them to do evil. He leaves them alone, knowing the result will be evil. Since He has no duty to intervene, He is not the cause.
The other way to look at it is that the lost are purely slaves to sin. This does not give an impression of freedom, but is of course Biblical and absolutely true. But even here, God is still not the cause of sin, He allows it in the same way. There is no duty to prevent it, nor a will to prevent it (to the extent He doesn't). God didn't cause the lost to be slaves to sin, Adam did.
Ko: I get the feeling you don't want to answer a straight forward question. Is it because Jesus said "it is finished" past tense?
To put it succinctly: that depends on who is reading it.
No not at all. I am also not avoiding to answer. It really depends who is reading it: the Jews will see no foreshadowing of Christ in the Law and the Prophets; the Christians will, etc.
It's one of those topics that one can either say "Okay," or start a new thread on the subject.
And so are the 'saved.'
The other way to look at it is that the lost are purely slaves to sin
Or that the 'saved' are slaves to righteousness.
Either we are free or we are slaves, but we can't be both.
Or that the 'saved' are slaves to righteousness. Either we are free or we are slaves, but we can't be both.
Well, that's why I have been making a distinction. But if you want a bottom line, then the lost are slaves to sin and the saved are slaves to righteousness, just as the Bible says. If a critic wants to now say that this makes everyone robots (and God the author of evil), then his argument is with scripture.
We do not believe in "free will" in the sense that it can trump God's will. My understanding of your theology is that man's will does indeed trump God's, given that you say God's will is that all men be saved. This has God willingly transferring His sovereignty away from Himself to place it in fallible man. The same thing happens with the claimed authority of the Church. Via this transfer, God must decrease so that man can increase. That just isn't Biblical.
YOU: To put it succinctly: that depends on who is reading it.
This isn't a trick question. In post 11,121 you wrote:
"Finished" to me means that he completed that which He came to accomplish; to fulfill the Law.
For the fourth time, what was the Law that Christ fulfilled?
If your interpretation of scripture ends up with robots or slaves, you've gone off wrong. If free will is an illusion, then all experience is an illusion and we might as well debate our dreams.
That one can read scripture and come to this conclusion should amaze us and it emphasizes that anything is possible with sola scriptura as the foundation.
I'm sorry, I should make sure first. Are you of the view that free will is a myth or an illusion?
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