Communion of Saints

Veritas Christi ^ | 2004 | Stephen D. Quinn

[annalex]

Most comprehensive treatment of the subject I've seen.

[annalex]

"Copyright 2002" refers to the website, apparently. The article is in the 2004 folder.

[annalex]

What is this icon properly called? Is it Russian? Looks like Moscow school.

[kosta50]

Most comprehensive treatment of the subject I've seen

Definitely. Excellent post, Alex.

[Kolokotronis]

"What is this icon properly called? Is it Russian? Looks like Moscow school"

I don't think I've ever seen this specific icon before. It looks like a variation of an icon called "The Intercession of the Virgin" which is a Novgorod School icon, 14th/15th century. It is certain that it is Russian.

[HarleyD]

I enjoy it when the Catholics quote the Reformers. Are they part of the Church Fathers now? At least I have the luxury of saying they were in error. :O)

All of the examples the author uses are people praying for other people. There is only one example in scripture of someone asking a dead saint to intercede in behave of him before God. Saul tried this with Samuel and it didn't go well for him. The author only eludes to this event and this is what he has to say:

Some have argued that praying to the dead is condemned by scripture in Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:3-20; 2 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Isaiah 8:19-22, etc. Catholics agree, communication with the dead, know as "necromancy" is a great sin and opens the door to greater demonic pursuits. However, there is a distinction between those who have died and those who are alive in Christ.

As Isaiah states, "Why consult the dead on behave of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn." Now there's a sola scriptura verse if I ever heard one. Leave it to a Catholic to share that one with me. :O)

The author makes the claim,

Catholics do not pray to those dead in spirit (completely spiritually separated from God), however we do ask for those who are physically dead in body (soul separated from body) but spiritually alive in Christ to pray for us.

If the Catholics do not pray to those who are dead in the spirit, the question is how do you know who is in heaven? How do you KNOW who are spiritually alive in Christ? Wouldn't it make you a tad nervous given the author's criteria, that praying to Saint Thomas More might not be as safe as praying to Saint Peter? Besides, Samuel was not dead in the spirit, yet God was pretty mad at Saul about the whole affair as was Samuel. Seems to me it's a shaky argument at best.

[annalex]

how do you know who is in heaven?

You can pray without a certain knowledge. You pray on the assumption that the intercessor is in Heaven, and if he is not, the prayer goes unanswered. In the case of a saint of the Church, we know because of the canonization that examined signs of sainthood.

A saint is not a sinless person (you bring up St. Peter whose sinful nature is amply described in the Gospel). The fact that you have a grievance against St. Thomas More but not against St. Peter does not invalidate St. Thomas More's status as a martyr.

God was pretty mad at Saul about the whole affair

The Church teaches that the fathers of the Hebrews were not a part of the Communion of Saints till Christ rescued them from the Limbo, so the entire Old Testament line of argument is moot.

[AlbionGirl]

Alex, thanks for the ping.

What the Reformers believed about Our Lord's Blessed Mother would never lead to veneration though, would it? Since you're quoting Luther and Calvin. Luther said that he didn't think saying the Hail Mary would be much of a problem for someone whose understanding of the Faith was solid, but that it wasn't something that should be encouraged.

Departing from that point, back in April of this year, National Review carried a review of some book by Fr. Nehaus. He stated that one of his parishoners told him that she didn't bother going to Christ because she had His Mother instead. He wrote it off as unimportant and just a case of 'bad theology.' But I think it's much more than that.

Back on the L&E thread you noted that it was considered sinful to pray to Christ for the little things, that that's what the saints were for. I even think you said that your assertion was to be found in Scripture. I saved the post but don't have it at the ready right now. Can post it later, if you'd like. Not trying to play gotcha here, just want to point out something you said that I thought was wrong, and allow you to elaborate if I misunderstood or misinterpreted.

[annalex]

Not quite. I was asked why would anyone prefer to pray to a saint. My answer was that (1) a particular saint might have a closer association with the thing prayed for, e.g. a worker may pray to a saint who was in a similar trade; and (2) the thing prayed for might seem spiritually insignificant, or vain. You are remembering the second possibility. The scriptural reference I can think of is the commandment not to use the name of God in vain. I did not say that it was objectively sinful to pray for trivial things, but I said that someone might interpret the prohibition on vain prayer in that way, and so prefer to pray to a saint. This interpretation is neither right or wrong, in my opinion. It is a private interpretation that should not become an obstacle to a richer prayer life, hence one feeling a similar scruple would be better off to pray to a saint than not to pray at all.

I was once driving somewhere and praying a Rosary. I got lost. The mystery I was meditating on happened to be Mary finding Jesus in the temple. The concern about finding my way in the streets combined with the picture of Mary looking for her Child in the pilgrims' traffic. The beads became a hand guiding mine. After the decade got said, I realized the state of my mind and was amused by the blend of the everyday and the eternal that my prayer contained. It was not an intercessory prayer, -- I was not praying to find my way, and I was not particularly distressed by being lost. My greater concern was not to lose concentration on the Mystery while making turns and traffic stops. I believe this episode shows the power of a meditative prayer that matches the everyday worry: it made my meditation on the Gospel extremely vivid.

[HarleyD]

There are plenty of scriptures which states not to pray to the dead and at least one example of where someone praying to a deceased man of God was a very bad thing. You can't even confirm that the people you're praying to are actually in heaven. Yet you insist it's "OK" because a group of people got together and said it's OK? Well I guess the Church knows best.

[adiaireton8]

There are plenty of scriptures which states not to pray to the dead

Name one. And if you can't find one that says not to "pray to the dead", I hope you will immediately retract your false assertion.

-A8

[annalex]

the Church knows best.

Definitely. However, show me the scripture that bothers you if it has not been covered already.

[William Terrell]

But, as we have seen, the church, in order to write scripture in conflict with or absence from scripture, must have authority over the souls of men that has been otherwise assigned by natural and spiritual law, acknowledged by the Gospels, and further described by the Acts and letters.

Any scripture, therefore, that has been interpreted to mean otherwise is ipso facto wrong.

The foundation is destroyed, so that built on the foundation likewise falls.

We've discussed this great detail on other threads, by your own insistence, and over my objections that it is a waste of time, you being invested in the Catholic dogma and can't hear or see any thing that opposes it.

So, why ping me to this thread, which simply builds on a destroyed foundation?

[HarleyD]

Didn't the author used:

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say to you, Seek to the mediums and to wizards who peep and mutter; should not a people seek to their God, than for the living to the dead?

Seems pretty straight forward to me. If you want something in the NT how about the following:

Luk 24:5 and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?

It's a little more obscure but still on point if you get the drift.

[adiaireton8]

Is. 8:19 is a prohibition on necromancy, i.e. consulting the dead to obtain information. That is nothing at all like asking departed saints to pray for us.

The Luke 24:5 passage is completely irrelevant to the issue of asking departed saints to pray for us.

Where's your retraction?

-A8

[Campion]

There is only one example in scripture of someone asking a dead saint to intercede in behave of him before God. Saul tried this with Samuel and it didn't go well for him.

Harley, that's flat wrong and you know it.

First off, conjuring up a dead person using a medium is always wrong, so that was Saul's first error. And Saul doesn't ask Samuel to "intercede in behave [sic] of him before God." 1 Sam 28:16 tells you, and Samuel, exactly why Saul conjured him up: "I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.".

That's the sin of necromancy, it was necromancy for Saul and it would be the sin of necromancy if a Catholic did it.

[annalex]

I pinged you because our conversation started with your questons about the communion of saints, and this article provides a clear and comprehensive answer.

The foundation is "faith once delivered to rhe saints", not the scrupture. However, this is a chance to discuss the scripture as pertains to the issue. I do not see a substantive scriptural rebuttal, only handwringing over how the Catholic Church is, well, catholic.

[jo kus]

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say to you, Seek to the mediums and to wizards who peep and mutter; should not a people seek to their God, than for the living to the dead?

Harley, Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't the Jews have a different idea of the dead than we Christians do? Didn't they believe in a "Sheol", a place of shades where people did NOT co-exist with God? The idea of resurrection and eternal life was a relatively new concept during the time of our Lord. Thus, I believe here is another place we find development of doctrine - specifically WITHIN Scriptures themselves as the community came to grip with the revelation that God had given them (incomplete and gradual, culminating in the Gospel preached by the Apostles).

Thus, I don't think it is worthwhile to point to the Old Testament restrictions about "praying with the dead" - unless you also want to condemn Jesus Christ Himself and His discussions with two "dead" prophets...

We now live in a new paradigm, not one guided by the Old Covenant ideas. For example, death on a tree is no longer seen as a condemnation by God...

Regards

[annalex]

Saints as distinct from other righteous:

14 ...Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness

(Jude 1)