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To: NYer
Priestly celibacy violates Scripture:

Genesis 1:27 says we are to be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth.

1 Timothy 3 and Titus 2 say that the pastor/overseer/bishop is to be the husband of one wife, and is to rule his own household well that he may oversee the flock

There is no Scriptural justification for celibacy...Tradition cannot contradict Scripture.

4 posted on 11/19/2006 12:37:08 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper
Genesis 1:27 says we are to be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth.

And what of those who are infertile?

There is no Scriptural justification for celibacy...Tradition cannot contradict Scripture.

Ah, but you neglect the words of Our Lord in the Gospel. "For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it" (Matthew 19:12).

7 posted on 11/19/2006 12:51:00 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: LiteKeeper

Tradition develops Scripture. There are many things that were done in 1st or 2nd century Christianity that are not done today, and many disputes (such as the reconciliation of apostates or even sinners, for example) that were settled and do not concern us anymore.

Celibacy is a discipline of the Church. No one says it is impossible for a priest to be married, in the sense that it invalidates his actions; many Byzantine rite Catholic priests are married, for example. But I think a full theological development of the priesthood actually does lead to the understanding that it is better and more fruitful spiritually for them not to be married. An Orthodox priest once told me that he thought it would be better not to have a married clergy. He said that having them married did not stop homosexuals from getting in (they simply did a "cover" marriage with one of the desperate girls who took music or other classes at the Orthodox seminary, seeking a husband), it was enormous pressure on the wife and children that often ended disastrously - which I saw on two occasions - and it did indeed distract the priest from his duty to the Church and the faithful of his parish.

That said, since Vatican II, the entire concept of the ordained priesthood in the Church has been so obscured and become so confused that it is easy to understand why many people simply think of the priest as the equivalent of a Protestant minister and can't understand why he, like a deacon, shouldn't be married.


9 posted on 11/19/2006 1:33:56 PM PST by livius
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To: LiteKeeper
Priestly celibacy violates Scripture:

Incorrect. As St. Jerome wrote and you affirm on a regular basis, "Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Genesis 1:27 says we are to be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth.

"And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27 That's what Genesis 1:27 actually says. The verse you mistakenly thought would reinforce your ignorant argument is Genesis 1:28, which is not absolute in any sense and Christ Himself contradicts you in Matthew 19:12.

1 Timothy 3 and Titus 2 say that the pastor/overseer/bishop is to be the husband of one wife, and is to rule his own household well that he may oversee the flock

"It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher." 1 Timothy 3:2 The actual meaning is that the prospective Bishop selected by St. Timothy could only have been married once, not that the prospective Bishop must have been married as the author of the Epistle, St. Paul, was himself a celibate.

You're confused, again, which isn't surprising. Titus 2 never mentions a "pastor/overseer/bishop".

There is no Scriptural justification for celibacy...

Incorrect again. Thanks for playing "I'm ignorant of Scripture". You are the grand prize winner, yet again.

"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." Matthew 19:12

"Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first." Matthew 19:27-30

"Then Peter said: Behold, we have left all things, and have followed thee. Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, there is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Luke 18:28-30

"But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I." 1 Corinthians 7:8

"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided." 1 Corinthians 7:32-33

"For this Melchisedech was king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him: To whom also Abraham divided the tithes of all: who first indeed by interpretation, is king of justice: and then also king of Salem, that is, king of peace: Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened unto the Son of God, continueth a priest for ever. Now consider how great this man is, to whom also Abraham the patriarch gave tithes out of the principal things. And indeed they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is to say, of their brethren: though they themselves also came out of the loins of Abraham."

" But he, whose pedigree is not numbered among them, received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction, that which is less, is blessed by the better. And here indeed, men that die, receive thithes: but there he hath witness, that he liveth. And (as it may be said) even Levi who received tithes, paid tithes in Abraham: For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedech met him."

"If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest,"

"Who is made not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an indissoluble life: For he testifieth: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: (For the law brought nothing to perfection,) but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God. And inasmuch as it is not without an oath, (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath;"

"But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever.) By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: But this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us."

"For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, in offering himself. For the law maketh men priests, who have infirmity: but the word of the oath, which was since the law, the Son who is perfected for evermore." Hebrews 7

13 posted on 11/19/2006 6:50:19 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: LiteKeeper
Your post was unbelievably easy to correct and refute.

I mean no disservice as I know your heart was in the right place. But, you might want to make a note that when there is scripture that refutes your position, then your position is just an opinion. If you seek the truth, then don't hold that opinion. It is incorrect. And above all, do not go public with your false personal opinion. It only puts a bright spot light on your false prejudice.
15 posted on 11/20/2006 5:03:33 AM PST by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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