Posted on 11/17/2006 5:12:22 PM PST by sionnsar
But while this is so, there are brightening prospects in the East. Thither, it would seem, God’s providence is directing us. The venerable orthodox Russian and Greek Church is turning to us with friendly expressions of interest. She says, “We do not ask you, as Rome does, to ’submit’ we only ask, ‘Do you hold the same Catholic faith we have inherited from the Fathers?’ If you do this, we are brothers.” When we consider that the East has been but little affected by the schoolmen, and had not to pass through the convulsions of a Reformation, and has for nine hundred years borne consistent witness for the faith once delivered, and against Roman errors, Anglicans should be willing to free themselves from their prejudices and somewhat self-conceit, and listen to her kindly words.
The Church, indwelt by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, is a living organism, and we may trust the Voice of God speaking through her before she was rent into Eastern and Western divisions. The Voice of God speaking to the churches is not confined, as some Anglicans seem to think, to any particular centuries. But in the seven Ecumenical councils we have the Voice of the Spirit and in the seven holy mysteries, the means of grace.
The question presenting the most difficulty has to do with the Filioque. There is no difference in belief between the Anglican communion and the venerable East on the doctrine of the Filioque, but without Ecumenical consent it has no right to be in the Creed.
May God inspire the wise men of the Church to solve the difficulty. Each church in the case of restored intercommunion would retain its own independent government and liturgy. Anglicans and Easterns must be content with agreement in the ancient faith,–not in the uniformity of its outward expression. While the faith is unchangeable, the Church, as the bride of Christ, has been led to follow her Lord’s life, and sometimes has been more absorbed in devotion to His incarnation, sometimes to His passion. The faith abides from age to age; but ceremonies and practices of devotion are the fresh outcome of the Church’s love. The East and the West have their own ceremonial traditions, and the differences existing should not hinder the restoration of Christian recognition and fellowship.
GSLOB---Your comments display ignorance on a grand level.
"It would be difficult for Canterbury and most of the national Anglican churches to enter into full communion with either Roman or Eastern Orthodoxy without entirely disclaiming all strains of Calvinism, but it is conceivable that some of the continuing Anglican churches could do exactly that."
From what I have learned from the noble sionnsar, I agree. I must say though that I have been surprised that such a reunion has yet to take place, but perhaps it needs more time. In the meantime, we see a steady stream of Episcopalians into our parish. We will be chrismating an Episcopalian woman during the Nativity fast.
Eleni mou, the spiritually dead materialism of the West, its "highest" form being communism, has achieved its purpose with so many people in both the East and the West, that even the Pope has forcefully called out for a Latin/Orthodox challenge to these ideas. In the West however the bacillus of secularism, however successful, never approached, tactically, the publicly expressed purpose of communism in the East, which was in great measure to destroy Orthodoxy. It should come as no surprise that it succeeded with some.
It might well have triumphed in the Patrida but for the faith of our people and their love for our Church. In my maternal village, the communists came and desecrated the churches, killed babies, raped women and left a body hanging from every tree limb in the plateia. The Church did nothing...except call all the people to prayer, secretly at first and publically after the communists left. That was all the village church could do and it was more than enough. A secularist, no matter where he or she might be from, can never understand this unless he or she is willing to undertake a sort of self abnegation before God which few of them are willing to do and an acceptance of the fact that evil is very real in this world. It has to do with pride, Eleni mou.
Couldn't agree with you more, HS. I would only like to add that Cathrine the Great was actually a westerner (German) and not Russian.
And I was born in what used to be Yugoslavia and I, too, have the first-hand experience of the "Orthodox civ," and most of the people there were baptized Orthodox and that's about as far as they went. After 50 years of communism (70 in the case of USSR), most people forgot in their souls what Orthodoxy is.
In my framework the "filioque" is utterly irrelevant
You just proved my point.
out of the Orthodox civ people tend to vote with their feet to the West, while in the opposite direction there is barely a trickle - is highly relevant
Of course, because they don't fast, pray or go to church regularly (only 4% do in Russia). They are as materialistic as the West (where on average about 5% go to church regularly), probably more the west out of the desire to imitate it. So, given to human passions, naturally they go where those passions are "free."
But your blatant statement that "Orthodoxy is a religion for despotisms" takes the cake. Last time I checked, America was colonized by people fleeing religious persecutions in Magna Carta England. Americans staged the incident in Boston shouting "no taxation without representation." America established the system of balance of power between the three branches of the government in order to prevent tyranny of King George type.
Let's not forget 20th century tyrannies like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, or Franco's Spain. Let's not forget that when Germany was run by uniformed ministers, as an absolutist Empire in 1914, and when Austria-Hungary was a no less absolutist, Orthodox Greece and Serbia were constitutional monarchies.
Orthodoxy does not favor any form of government. The NT teaches us that we must respect government. Power is from God. What people do with power is not God's fault, but ours. God gave us dominion over earth and we perverted it.
Maybe you can expand on this "proclivity," and the "likes" of Serbs. I take it, you have an axe to grind with the Serbs?
BTW, there is no "proclivity" in Greek-Serbs closeness. It is cultural and religious.
Kolokotronis mou, you said so well. This brings memories of recent murder of Amish girls in their school and the Amish community quietly burying them without pomp or calls for revenge, in forgiveness and acceptance that no secularist could ever be capable of, precisely because of pride. Their "honor" would have to be avenged. For men tend to return evil for evil and that is what the Christ tells us we must not do.
So, the Church is seen as being passive and even permissive of tyrannical regimes. The Church cannot change its teachings to suit our passions. Being Orthodox doesn't mean you are passive, but when evil is done no amount of evil done in revenge will make it a blessing.
More like mutually exclusive.
"...on the proclivity to affiliation with the likes of the Serbs and Mid-Easterners -"
Not just "affiliation", G, but a profound connection and closeness akin to that found among brothers. There are no people on earth we Greeks are closer to than the Serbs and the Orthodox Lebanese/Syrians. We share 2000 years of Orthodoxy with those Middle Easterners, an Hellenic culture older than that and centuries of Mohammedan domination and oppression; with the Serbs, the same Mohammedan oppression, the same Orthodoxy and the mingling of the blood of our forefathers on battlefields fighting together the enemies of our peoples and our Faith. You bet we're "affiliated" and we'll stay that way, too!
Uh oh. What have I done now?
... I agree. I must say though that I have been surprised that such a reunion has yet to take place, but perhaps it needs more time.
It will definitely need more time. Though I have seen firsthand one Episcopal church that seems almost ready to move wholesale, it will take more conversation than I've been aware of between the Orthodox and a Continuing church for such a move to take place.
I can't imagine Serbs not being eternally greatful to the Greeks, who gave us the most beautful religion, Divine Liturgy and liturgical language on earth — Eastern Orthodoxy, Divine Liturgy of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom and Church Slavonic. Eternally.
Try it at Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic [you will need RealPlayer that reads .ram files]
Sionnsar, eleni121, you may wish to listen to the link poosted in #32 just to get the taste of my reply there (although you were not pinged directly).
And would that be the end of the world? If you truly believe that those who die for Christ's sake are martyred and go straight to heaven, why would you value this life over the eternal Kingdom? Are we not to let go of earthly cares and not love the world? Or are those only empty words that sound good?
I wouldn't worry too much about those who stay behind. If you truly believe that God is merciful and just, then they too will receive what they deserved. Or do you doubt that?
This does not mean we need to commit suicide by letting others hunt us down like scared little rabbits. To the contrary! But as long as we understand that returning evil for evil will not get us any points in heaven. And this is rather a short pit-stop in eternity. So, long-term plans are probably wise.
The "just war" theory is a western distortion (actually an oxymoron, if you will) of the Christian mindset. Our Lord Jesus Chirst said "egw de legw umin mh antisthnai tw ponhrw"(Mat 5:39). Try to avoid him, and if you must defened yourself, do what is needed to survive, but not beyond.
Yes, a better choice of words!
I guess I am too firmly rooted in this world.
My heroes are the Saints - warriors of the spirit - but also the warriors of the flesh guided by the spirit.
And may I add from this essay about "just war" and Orthodoxy. Constantine Cyril - the Apostle to the Slavs- guides me in my understanding - as incomplete as it is...
http://www.theandros.com/justwar.html
That's you choice.
As for the heroes, we wish to imitate the Saints. As monastic clearly, they held themselves to a higher standard. Again, it is a judgment call what is better in the eyes of (the Christian) God: to follow the sample of +Polycarp and +Ignatius, and numerous others, or to become a crusader. The Church is very clear on that. The two Fathers you mention are speculating, and giving their religious opinions (theologoumenna). The key word in both of their arguments is that it is possible for a Christian, who engages in warfare, to be saved. Of course, with God everything is possible! But the Church also makes it very clear which action is morally closer to what Christ taught and, ultimately, what a true Christian must consider.
We are all at at different stages of cleaving to the world as we seek salvation with God's help. The degree of our disbelief, the emptiness of our prayers, is directly proportional to how much we cleave to the world. Which is fine, since it is, after all, our decision.
The opinions of individual Fathers, however, cannot be taken as gospel. Nor do their pinions represent official dogma of the Church. So, while the Saints speculated on many a subject, not all their speculations are "the Faith once delivered." +Augustine is an excellent example that this is indeed so, for while the Orthodox Church recognizes him as a Saint, his contribution to the Faith of the Seven Councils is rather minimal.
Likewise, one of the Capadoccian Fathers postulated that even the evil souls will eventually be saved. That is certainly not the position of the Church and has been. While God did not prepare hell for mankind, but satan and his demons, there will be those men who will walk right into hell all on their own account. And when they do, since repentance after death is not possible, they will stay there.
Filos mou, I know *somewhere* in there also you have not forgotten affection for your friends across the Adriatic. I seem to remember that--a few years back a ways--you graciously let our great great grandfather slip from the ruins of Troy with his son at his side and his father on his shoulders. Wasn't there a song written about it? ;)
" Filos mou, I know *somewhere* in there also you have not forgotten affection for your friends across the Adriatic."
You mean the song which starts thusly?
"arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris
Italiam fato profugus Laviniaque venit
litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto
vi superum, saevae memorem Iunonis ob iram,
multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem
inferretque deos Latio; genus unde
Albanique patres atque altae moenia Romae." :)
Well, of course we're close to our Italian brothers, the late unpleasantness in the 1940s to the contrary notwithstanding. "Greci e Siciliani, una faca, una raca", as I was always taught!:)
Yes! that's the one. ;)
Yeah, some crazy bald fellow starting running around acting like he ran the place. What a tool. He ended up swinging from a lamppost last I heard, and you guys got "OXI" day.
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