Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
The question is, what counts as "proving it"? If it is merely persevering till death, then not until death can we know that we are elect. But if "proving it" is not merely persevering till death, then how can we know now that we are saved (since we don't know now that we will persevere till death)?
-A8
Hey Harley, long time no speak.
Just a bump to your excellent words.
-A8
And how do you know the saints you're praying to are in heaven? Because the Church states it or that someone was healed when they said a prayer?
LOL. We either trust God or we don't because His covenant with His elect is either valid or invalid.
"But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you." -- Jeremiah 7:23
Doesn't matter to those who have a stake, both of power and money in convincing us that it is within our power to keep the law. Confess, get a priest's absolution. Confess, get a priest's absolution. Confess, get a priest's absolution, and on and on and on. It's a slick version of 'sin boldly.' Power and mediating the salvation of a person is their aphrodisiac and their disorder.
Is it that you are not *trusting* God? Or is it that don't think that God's command was directed to you?
Ok, now that you understand that not every case of thinking a verse is not addressed to you is a case of unbelief, let's get back to the business of showing how you know that those 'assurance verses' apply to you.
-A8
-A8
What good is knowing "now" if you can't know on the Day of Judgment? Why would John the Apostle say, "You can know you're saved now, but Judgment Day is anyone's guess."?
I have no idea where you got the idea that I was saying that we can know now, but can't know then, that we are elect. Of course, on the Day of Judgment, if we are let into heaven, we will definitely know that we have been let into heaven. The point in question is whether we can *now* know whether we are elect (i.e. whether we will be let into heaven on the Day of Judgment).
-A8
To state that someone is a Saint is to say you know what God knows. One can't know if they are saved, but can know that someone else is? So, 'The Church' knows what God knows? And how many Saints are there? Why one for every aliment under the sun. Remember on the L&E thread, when it was asserted that it's a sin to approach Christ for the little things? That that's what the Saints are for. I think it was either you or FK that found the patron saint of cramps in the official list.
As an aside, the L&E thread just went out without a whimper, didn't it?
Sorry to tax your patience, but I'm having trouble seeing your point; I thought John answered that for both of us. If John said that he's written these things to those who believe in the name of the Son of God that they may know they have eternal life, then you can, indeed, know. I see nothing in I John (or anywhere else) that tells me I won't know until Judgment Day.
Those who read the Bible know that Christ is the only offering God is interested in.
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." -- Hebrews 10:14
What an excellent observation, AG.
Well, I "thought" I had explained this in my 21. :) So, I'm not sure what you are looking for. I believe that the Bible is inerrantly true. The Bible is clear that those with true faith will be saved. It says that all of them will, not just "some" who have true faith. (As you know, the Bible distinguishes between those with true faith and those with false faith in places such as James 2:14.)
I claim to have true faith for a couple of reasons. One is that I know with what earnestness I prayed for Christ to come into my life. I compare that experience to what I have later learned through reading the prayers/testimonies of other Biblical figures, whom we all accept as true believers, and I am satisfied that my experience was real.
Another reason is that I have seen the effect my conversion has had on my life. I can testify that my thoughts and actions have changed and continue to change. I do and think things now that never would have occurred to me as an unbeliever. While I intellectually agree with everything in the Bible, even today there is much in the Bible that goes directly against what I want, that is, my sin nature. However, just as the Bible predicts, this list is getting smaller and smaller as I continue to be sanctified by the sole work of God. IOW, everything that has happened to me since my salvation is perfectly described in the Bible, including when I blow it. That tells me that I "look" like a saved Christian.
Now, you may well disagree with me about the interpretation of the passages I am referencing, but they are a basis of my assurance. Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them. Subjectively, I testify to the presence of God actively working in my life to bring me closer to Him. He has put hunger in my heart to study His word when I am certain that it never would have been there were it left up to me. While God certainly uses the reprobate, I can't imagine He would do for me spiritually what He has already done, if His intention was to pull the rug out someday. In fact, the Bible promises that He won't. Therefore, from my perspective, if God did pull the rug out on me, then it would invalidate the Bible, an impossibility and another reason for assurance.
-A8
-A8
Well, my apologies if my reference to the Scriptures confuses the issue. On the other hand, what makes you think that I haven't already been at the point of physical death? That certainly wouldn't be confusing the issue.
But, really, this does boil down to the fact that there are only 2 religions in all of Christianity. There is a religion of works, which says that if you do so and so or such and such and endure to the end, you will be rewarded with salvation. Under this scheme, you will naturally ever be in a state of uncertaintity about whether you are really one of those who the assurance verse apply to and will ever be like the crab in the bottom of the pail pulling all the others into their private world of doubt. My advice would be to quit attempting to sow the seeds of doubt, but spend time examining yourself to see if you really are of the faith.
Thankfully, the Reformers were blessed by the Lord to restore the true gospel of grace to Christianity and the dark age ended for some of us. We rest assured that we know God, or better, are known by God. We experience and rejoice in the scourging that reveals us to be sons and not bastards (my apologies if the KJ reference offends).
post tenebras lux,
I'm with you so far.
I claim to have true faith for a couple of reasons. One is that I know with what earnestness I prayed for Christ to come into my life. I compare that experience to what I have later learned through reading the prayers/testimonies of other Biblical figures, whom we all accept as true believers, and I am satisfied that my experience was real.
In order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have the earnestness that you had(have). But you don't know that. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.
Another reason is that I have seen the effect my conversion has had on my life. I can testify that my thoughts and actions have changed and continue to change. I do and think things now that never would have occurred to me as an unbeliever. While I intellectually agree with everything in the Bible, even today there is much in the Bible that goes directly against what I want, that is, my sin nature. However, just as the Bible predicts, this list is getting smaller and smaller as I continue to be sanctified by the sole work of God. IOW, everything that has happened to me since my salvation is perfectly described in the Bible, including when I blow it. That tells me that I "look" like a saved Christian.
Again, in order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have these effects in their lives. But you don't know that. In fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite, for there are many cases of people who had great faith, with all those effects, and yet fell away at the end. Think of the great church father Tertullian for example. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.
Now, you may well disagree with me about the interpretation of the passages I am referencing, but they are a basis of my assurance. Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them.
The problem with this claim is that objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people also fits many (if not most) apostates-to-be, and therefore that undercuts the basis for assurance you are attempting to derive from these passages.
Subjectively, I testify to the presence of God actively working in my life to bring me closer to Him. He has put hunger in my heart to study His word when I am certain that it never would have been there were it left up to me. While God certainly uses the reprobate, I can't imagine He would do for me spiritually what He has already done, if His intention was to pull the rug out someday.
Wow. Have you ever known serious believers who went apostate? It seems that you have not. I have. If you ever do have an experience the apostasy of someone you know well who you would bet your right arm is a genuine believer, it is going to undermine your reason (in your paragraph directly above).
In fact, the Bible promises that He won't.
Of course. But that promise doesn't do any good to those who don't know whether they are elect. So appealing to the promise just begs the question (i.e. assumes precisely what you are trying to show).
Therefore, from my perspective, if God did pull the rug out on me, then it would invalidate the Bible, an impossibility ....
Of course. But, if it turned out that are an apostate-to-be, and are not elect, then if when you fall away, this wouldn't invalidate the Bible in the least, since all those 'assurance verses' never applied to you in the first place.
-A8
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