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Well, I "thought" I had explained this in my 21. :) So, I'm not sure what you are looking for. I believe that the Bible is inerrantly true. The Bible is clear that those with true faith will be saved. It says that all of them will, not just "some" who have true faith. (As you know, the Bible distinguishes between those with true faith and those with false faith in places such as James 2:14.)

I'm with you so far.

I claim to have true faith for a couple of reasons. One is that I know with what earnestness I prayed for Christ to come into my life. I compare that experience to what I have later learned through reading the prayers/testimonies of other Biblical figures, whom we all accept as true believers, and I am satisfied that my experience was real.

In order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have the earnestness that you had(have). But you don't know that. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.

Another reason is that I have seen the effect my conversion has had on my life. I can testify that my thoughts and actions have changed and continue to change. I do and think things now that never would have occurred to me as an unbeliever. While I intellectually agree with everything in the Bible, even today there is much in the Bible that goes directly against what I want, that is, my sin nature. However, just as the Bible predicts, this list is getting smaller and smaller as I continue to be sanctified by the sole work of God. IOW, everything that has happened to me since my salvation is perfectly described in the Bible, including when I blow it. That tells me that I "look" like a saved Christian.

Again, in order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have these effects in their lives. But you don't know that. In fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite, for there are many cases of people who had great faith, with all those effects, and yet fell away at the end. Think of the great church father Tertullian for example. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.

Now, you may well disagree with me about the interpretation of the passages I am referencing, but they are a basis of my assurance. Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them.

The problem with this claim is that objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people also fits many (if not most) apostates-to-be, and therefore that undercuts the basis for assurance you are attempting to derive from these passages.

Subjectively, I testify to the presence of God actively working in my life to bring me closer to Him. He has put hunger in my heart to study His word when I am certain that it never would have been there were it left up to me. While God certainly uses the reprobate, I can't imagine He would do for me spiritually what He has already done, if His intention was to pull the rug out someday.

Wow. Have you ever known serious believers who went apostate? It seems that you have not. I have. If you ever do have an experience the apostasy of someone you know well who you would bet your right arm is a genuine believer, it is going to undermine your reason (in your paragraph directly above).

In fact, the Bible promises that He won't.

Of course. But that promise doesn't do any good to those who don't know whether they are elect. So appealing to the promise just begs the question (i.e. assumes precisely what you are trying to show).

Therefore, from my perspective, if God did pull the rug out on me, then it would invalidate the Bible, an impossibility ....

Of course. But, if it turned out that are an apostate-to-be, and are not elect, then if when you fall away, this wouldn't invalidate the Bible in the least, since all those 'assurance verses' never applied to you in the first place.

-A8

In order for this to be evidence that you have [true] faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have the earnestness that you had(have). But you don't know that. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.

Why would I have to know that? I can't know what was in the hearts of those with false faith specifically, but I wasn't comparing to them, I was comparing to what we are told a true Christian looks like. The assurance and perseverance verses show a doctrine that a person with true faith cannot be lost. I believe that doctrine. If the words of the Bible are true, then a person with false faith cannot have truly accepted Christ. This whole thing is a matter of Biblical interpretation.

And, my POV in all this is to answer the question "How does Forest know he is saved", NOT "Can Forest prove to A8 that he is saved". I cannot "prove" it to you or anyone else with absolute certainty because you can't know what's in my heart. I am telling why I think I can know.

In fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite, for there are many cases of people who had great faith, with all those effects, and yet fell away at the end. Think of the great church father Tertullian for example.

But I don't know that there are many examples of people who believe as I do and yet fell away permanently. There are many examples of those who professed great faith, but who can tell what was really in their hearts? I can only be certain about my own faith. How can you be certain that those you are speaking of had true faith?

BTW, I knew that Tertullian was in the Catholic doghouse at the end, but I didn't know that his salvation was questioned. Is it the general view among Catholics that he was probably not saved?

FK: "... Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them."

I disagree because the minute you apply this to another person it ceases to be objective and becomes subjective. You cannot know the heart of another, so you cannot presume his faith to be as I claim for myself. Objectivity can only be claimed by the individual about himself.

Have you ever known serious believers who went apostate? It seems that you have not. I have. If you ever do have an experience the apostasy of someone you know well who you would bet your right arm is a genuine believer, it is going to undermine your reason ...

No, I never have to the point of permanency. I have known many who have royally screwed up, but among those I would have bet my right arm about, none who have appeared to leave the faith forever. I accept that you have, and that just goes to show that we can never be certain about anyone else. The Reformed view is that a person with true faith might fall away for a time, even possibly a prolonged time, but the scriptures clearly state that God will not lose one of His sheep, and the person will be brought back into the fold before the end.

FK: "In fact, the Bible promises that He won't."

Of course. But that promise doesn't do any good to those who don't know whether they are elect.

Since your position seems to be that no one can know if he is of the elect, then what ARE those Biblical promises FOR? Your position appears to be that they are good to no one.

But, if it turned out that [you] are an apostate-to-be, and are not elect, then if when you fall away, this wouldn't invalidate the Bible in the least, since all those 'assurance verses' never applied to you in the first place.

I reject the premise because it is an impossibility. :)