Official statement of French bishops concerning the Tridentine Mass

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/schall_sokolowski1_mar06.asp

It is important to understand that at Vatican II, Phenomenology replaced Scholasticism as the "thought of the Church."

Interesting observation, and it may be true. I will read Kobler's book. Have your read Fr. Jonathon Robinson's book on recovering the liturgy, The Mass and Modernity? It's excellent and he touches on this, although he, like the Pope in his address at Regensburg, locates the changinging philosophical conception much further back.

The question as to why Vatican II and its abuses were the product of people who grew up and were nourished under the old system is not really that hard to answer. Looking back, I would say that there was an undercurrent of rebellion and revisionism in the Church which had not been thoroughly dealt with during the attempts to stamp out the Modernist heresy at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries. Those people had simply learned to go underground and stay below the radar. All Vatican II did was clear away any administrative and doctrinal obstacles, and let them emerge into the light of day. In fact, by destroying or removing the old liturgy and many of the external practices of the past that had served to keep Catholics faithful and remind them of tradition, it not only promoted this group but deprived their opponents of their traditional support and points of reference. I think that was why it was so important to the Vatican II folks to get rid of the Old Mass, even though Vatican II did not, initially, call for this.

Incidentally, I am not saying that the initial idea of Vatican II was bad (although it's hard to say exactly what Pope John XXIII had in mind). It could have gone either way: that is, the buried modernism could have been brought to the fore and confronted openly, not by relying on ham-fisted suppression and oaths of obedience that their takers must have snickered at even as they took them, but by a revived and reinvigorated understanding of tradition and a restatement of the traditional philosophical underpinnings of the Church (of which Thomism is simply one statement, since he did not break with the past, either). Catholic thinking did need a fresh look, and there was certainly room for analysis and reexpression.

However, this did not happen; instead, the very people who needed to be confronted ran up and took command. But I think that the liturgy is key to this, because if it had not changed so drastically, there would still have been a sort of fortress for orthodoxy to defend. As it was, there appeared to be nothing and people who were orthodox found themselves on a windswept plain, subject to attacks from all sides.

I think the French bishops are worrying too much about this. The permission to say the 1962 Mass would not be a mandate. This indult, which has not yet been issued and might not be, is not going to cause as much change as some think. It would be up to individual priests as to whether or not they want to celebrate the Tridentine rite and the fact of the matter is that most will choose not to do so.

I think the whole thing is symbolic. It will probably have little effect on the practice of the French bishops, who will probably politely ignore it. They simply don't like the idea of any approval being given to it, because they fear it might weaken their position. Since their position has led to a church in which something like only 3% of French Catholics attend Mass anymore, one would think it an undefensible position. But not to them, apparently.

The bishops, concerned for the common good and the unity of the Church, took this initiative because of the uneasiness felt by many of the faithful, deacons and priests of their respective dioceses.

I've been "uneasy" for like 40 years!!

Since when has anybody been concerned about that?

Spare us the faux pastoral solicitude.

Great article....

I am sick to death of certian groups of people insisting that anything and everything having to do with phenomenological thinking is eeeevvviiill and modernist, which of course it simply the label they slap on anything that looks at them funny that day. It's even more aggravating when you know that they haven't read any Husserl or Sarte.

God is so much greater than the human mind can comprehend, there will be no end to ways to think about Him. No end to the ways you can try to understand Him, and no end the the paths He will choose to lead His children home to Him.

"light to the nations"

This is bad how? It is exactly how Simeon greated Our Infant Lord.

Pope John's Opening Speech to the Council On October 11, 1962,

Mother Church rejoices that, by the singular gift of Divine Providence, the longed-for day has finally dawned when -- under the auspices of the virgin Mother of God, whose maternal dignity is commemorated on this feast -- the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council is being solemnly opened here beside St.Peter's tomb.

THE ECUMENICAL COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH

The Councils -- both the twenty ecumenical ones and the numberless others,also important, of a provincial or regional character which have been held down through the years -- all prove clearly the vigor of the Catholic Church and are recorded as shining lights in her annals.

In calling this vast assembly of bishops, the latest and humble successor to the Prince of the Apostles who is addressing you intended to assert once again the magisterium (teaching authority), which is unfailing and perdures until the end of time, in order that this magisterium, taking into account the errors, the requirements, and the opportunities of our time, might be presented in exceptional form to all men throughout the world.

* Hmm, I am constantly reading the council was not called to address any errors. Well, what does he know. He was only the Pope

It is but natural that in opening this Universal Council we should like to look to the past and to listen to its voices whose echo we like to hear in the memories and the merits of the more recent and ancient Pontiffs, our predecessors. These are solemn and venerable voices, throughout the East and the West, from the fourth century to the Middle Ages, and from there to modern times, which have handed down their witness to those Councils. They are voices which proclaim in perennial fervor the triumph of that divine and human institution, the Church of Christ, which from Jesus takes its name, its grace, and its meaning.

Side by side with these motives for spiritual joy, however, there has also een for more than nineteen centuries a cloud of sorrows and of trials. Not without reason did the ancient Simeon announce to Mary the mother of Jesus,that prophecy which has been and still is true: "Behold this child is set for the fall and the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted" ( Lk. 2: 34 ) . And Jesus Himself, when He grew up, clearly outlined the manner in which the world would treat His person down through the succeeding centuries with the mysterious words: "He who hears you, hears me" (Ibid. 10:16), and with those others that the same Evangelist relates: "He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Ibid. 11 :23).

The great problem confronting the world after almost two thousand years remains unchanged. Christ is ever resplendent as the center of history and of life. Men are either with Him and His Church, and then they enjoy light,goodness, order, and peace. Or else they are without Him, or against Him,and deliberately opposed to His Church, and then they give rise to confusion, to bitterness in human relations, and to the constant danger of fratricidal wars.

* Hmm, I wonder what schism which attacks the church daily might he have anticipated?)

Ecumenical Councils, whenever they are assembled, are a solemn celebration of the union of Christ and His Church, and hence lead to the universal radiation of truth, to the proper guidance of individuals in domestic and social life, to the strengthening of spiritual energies for a perennial uplift toward real and everlasting goodness.

*Hmm the Pope claims one thing, the schism another. Who to believe?

The testimony of this extraordinary magisterium of the Church in the succeeding epochs of these twenty centuries of Christian history stands before us collected in numerous and imposing volumes, which are the sacred patrimony of our ecclesiastical archives, here in Rome and in the more noted libraries of the entire world.

THE ORIGIN AND REASON FOR THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

As regards the initiative for the great event which gathers us here, it will suffice to repeat as historical documentation our personal account of the first sudden bringing up in our heart and lips of the simple words, "Ecumenical Council." We uttered those words in the presence of the Sacred College of Cardinals on that memorable January 25, 1959, the feast of the Conversion of St. Paul, in the basilica dedicated to him. It was completely unexpected, like a flash of heavenly light, shedding sweetness in eyes and hearts. And at the same time it gave rise to a great fervor throughout the world in expectation of the holding of the Council.

*Impossible !! The Holy Ghost inspiring the Pope, the Vicar of Christ...Nah...

There have elapsed three years of laborious preparation, during which a wide and profound examination was made regarding modern conditions of faith and religious practice, and of Christian and especially Catholic vitality. These years have seemed to us a first sign, an initial gift of celestial grace.

Illuminated by the light of this Council, the Church -- we confidently trust -- will become greater in spiritual riches and gaining the strength of new energies therefrom, she will look to the future without fear. In fact, by bringing herself up to date where required, and by the wise organization of mutual co-operation, the Church will make men, families, and peoples really turn their minds to heavenly things.

*And all the failed Faith of those who reject the Council and publicly revile it, and attack it. Will they ever take responsibility for their failed Faith? No. Like the true liberals they are, they will blame the Council itself; they will blame all the Popes since Pius XII; they will blame Free Masonry; they will blame the Jews: they wil blame the Illuminati: they will blame Modernism; they will, everywhere and always, blame others for their own lost souls.

And thus the holding of the Council becomes a motive for wholehearted thanksgiving to the Giver of every good gift, in order to celebrate with joyous canticles the glory of Christ our Lord, the glorious and immortal King of ages and of peoples.

*Hmm, King of peoples? Was the Pope a crypto Marxist?

The opportuneness of holding the Council is, moreover, venerable brothers, another subject which it is useful to propose for your consideration.Namely, in order to render our Joy more complete, we wish to narrate before this great assembly our assessment of the happy circumstances under which the Ecumenical Council commences.

In the daily exercise of our pastoral office, we sometimes have to listen, much to our regret, to voices of persons who, though burning with zeal, are not endowed with too much sense of discretion or measure. In these modern times they can see nothing but prevarication and ruin. They say that our era, in comparison with past eras, is getting worse, and they behave asthough they had learned nothing from history, which is, none the less, the teacher of life. They behave as though at the time of former Councils everything was a full triumph for the Christian idea and life and for proper religious liberty.

* LOL He nailed it !!!! O Tempora O mores

We feel we must disagree with those prophets of gloom, who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world were at hand.

*Ut oh...I think the Vicar of Christ is about to go positive. POSITIVE, for God's sake. What is he, a pentecostal holy-roller or someting?

In the present order of things, Divine Providence is leading us to a new order of human relations which, by men's own efforts and even beyond their very expectations, are directed toward the fulfilment of God's superior and inscrutable designs. And everything, even human differences, leads to the greater good of the Church.

* NO WAY. Every thing is bad. Everything.We are doomed. Dooommmmed. The Church will fail unless a schism is mounted

It is easy to discern this reality if we consider attentively the world of today, which is so busy with politics and controversies in the economic order that it does not find time to attend to the care of spiritual reality,with which the Church's magisterium is concerned. such a way of acting iscertainly not right, and must justly be disapproved. It cannot be denied, however, that these new conditions of modern life have at least the advantage of having eliminated those innumerable obstacles by which, at one time, the sons of this world impeded the free action of the Church. In fact, it suffices to leaf even cursorily through the pages of ecclesiastical history to note clearly how the Ecumenical Councils themselves, while constituting a series of true glories for the Catholic Church, were often held to the accompaniment of most serious difficulties and sufferings because of the undue interference of civil authorities. The princes of this world, indeed, sometimes in all sincerity, intended thus to protect the Church. But more frequently this occurred not without spiritual damage and danger, since their interest therein was guided by the views of a selfish and perilous policy.

* Bad Pope. Past good, Present bad. Future worse. He not act like Heap big Vicar.

In this regard, we confess to you that we feel most poignant sorrow over the fact that very many bishops, so dear to us are noticeable here today by their absence, because they are imprisoned for their faithfulness to Christ,or impeded by other restraints. The thought of them impels us to raise most fervent prayer to God. Nevertheless, we see today, not without great hopes and to our immense consolation, that the Church, finally freed from so many obstacles of a profane nature such as trammeled her in the past, can from this Vatican Basilica, as if from a second apostolic cenacle, and through your intermediary, raise her voice resonant with majesty and greatness.

* Sorry, Pope. The ears of the Faihful have gone deaf. Who reads your words anymore? Who can possibly swallow this namby-pamby Christianity anyways. Next you will be telling us Christ has already won the Victory.

PRINCIPLE DUTY OF THE COUNCIL: THE DEFENSE AND ADVANCEMENT OF TRUTH

The greatest concern of the Ecumenical Council is this: that he sacred deposit of Christian doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously. That doctrine embraces the whole of man, composed as he is of body and soul. And, since he is a pilgrim on this earth, it commands him to tend always toward heaven.

This demonstrates how our mortal life is to be ordered in such a way as to fulfil our duties as citizens of earth and of heaven, and thus to attain the aim of life as established by God. That is, all men, whether taken singly or as united in society, today have the duty of tending ceaselessly during their lifetime toward the attainment of heavenly things and to use, for this purpose only, the earthly goods, the employment of which must not prejudice their eternal happiness.

The Lord has said: "Seek first the kingdom of Cod and his justice" (Mt. 6:33). The word "first" expresses the direction in which our thoughts and energies must move. We must not, however, neglect the other words of this exhortation of our Lord, namely: "And all these things shall be given you besides" (Ibid. ). In reality, there always have been in the Church, and there are still today, those who, while seeking the practice of evangelical perfection with all their might, do not fail to make themselves useful to society. Indeed, it from their constant example of life and their charitable undertakings that all that is highest and noblest in human society takes its strength and growth.

In order, however, that this doctrine may influence the numerous fields of human activity, with reference to individuals, to families, and to social life, it is necessary first of all that the Church should never depart from the sacred patrimony of truth received from the Fathers. But at the same time she must ever look to the present, to the new conditions and new forms of life introduced into the modern world, which have opened new avenues to the Catholic apostolate.

For this reason, the Church has not watched inertly the marvellous progress of the discoveries of human genius, an has not been backward in evaluating them rightly. But, while following these developments, she does not neglect to admonish men so that, over and above sense -- perceived things -- they may raise their eyes to God, the Source of all wisdom and all beauty. And may they never forget the most serious command: "The Lord thy God shalt thou worship, and Him only shalt thou serve" (Mt. 4:10; Lk. 4:8), so that it may happen that the fleeting fascination of visible things should impede true progress.

The manner in which sacred doctrine is spread, this having been established, it becomes clear how much is expected from the Council in regard to doctrine. That is, the Twenty-first Ecumenical Council, which will draw upon the effective and important wealth of juridical, liturgical, apostolic, and administrative experiences, wishes to transmit the doctrine, pure and integral, without any attenuation or distortion, which throughout twenty centuries, notwithstanding difficulties and contrasts, has become the common patrimony of men. It is a patrimony not well received by all, but always a rich treasure available to men of good will.

* All together now..." THE COUNCIL FAILED !!!!

*Oh, yeah. Those last few words..."men of good will." Well, I am sure he certainly couldn't have anticipated the schism. His teaching can't apply to them. The schism is suffused with good will. Schism is good.

Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the Church has followed for twenty centuries.

* Hey, just a second, buster. Who are YOU to tell us this Ecuemnical Council follows in the path of Tradition? Who died and resurrected and made you Pope

The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

*OK the Pope has gone right round the bend. He actually had the temerity to say that "modern," read that again, "modern" theologians taught truth? Puhleeze. WE ALL know he let bad peritus into the Council to do the work of satan. I know that. I read the FatCrusadingRemCathFamyNews analyses

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.

HOW TO REPRESS ERRORS

At the outset of the Second Vatican Council, it is evident, as always, that the truth of the Lord will remain forever. We see, in fact, as one age succeeds another, that the opinions of men follow one another and exclude each other. And often errors vanish as quickly as they arise, like fog before the sun The Church has always opposed these errors. Frequently she has condemned them with the greatest severity. Nowadays however, the Spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. She consider that she meets the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by condemnations Not, certainly, that there is a lack of fallacious teaching, opinions, and dangerous concepts to be guarded against an dissipated. But these are so obviously in contrast with the right norm of honesty, and have produced such lethal fruits that by now it would seem that men of themselves are inclined to condemn them, particularly those ways of life which despise God and His law or place excessive confidence in technical progress and a well-being based exclusively on the comforts of life. They are ever more deeply convinced of the paramount dignity of the human person and of his perfection as well as of the duties which that implies. Even more important, experience has taught men that violence inflicted on others, the might of arms, and political domination, are of no help at all in finding a happy solution to the grave problems which afflict them.

* Oh, so he DID recognise there were errors and this Council was the most efficacious way to respond to errors. Ok, he got lucky

That being so, the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this Ecumenical Council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the brethren who are separated from her. To mankind, oppressed by so many difficulties, the Church says, as Peter said to the poor who begged alms stfrom him: "I have neither gold nor silver, but what I have I give you; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise and walk" (Acts 3:6). In other words, the Church does not offer to the men of today riches that pass, nor does she promise them merely earthly happiness. But she distributes to them the goods of divine grace which, raising men to the dignity of sons of God, are the most efficacious safeguards and aids toward a more human life. She opens the fountain of her life-giving doctrine which allows men, enlightened by the light of Christ, to understand well what they really are, what their lofty dignity and their purpose are, and, finally, through her children, she spreads everywhere the fullness of Christian charity, than which nothing is more effective in eradicating the seeds of discord, nothing more efficacious in promoting concord, just peace, and the brotherly unity of all.

* So, the Pope thought the Council should act like Christ and teach with Truth and Mercy and let error, separated from the vine, wither and die.

THE UNITY OF THE CHRISTIAN AND HUMAN FAMILY MUST BE PROMOTED

The Church's solicitude to promote and defend truth derives from the fact that, according to the plan of God, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (l Tim. 2:4), men without the assistance of the whole of revealed doctrine cannot reach a complete and firm unity of minds, with which are associated true peace and eternal salvation.

Unfortunately, the entire Christian family has not yet fully attained this visible unity in truth.

The Catholic Church, therefore, considers it her duty to work actively so that there may be fulfilled the great mystery of that unity, which Jesus Christ invoked with fervent prayer from His heavenly Father on the eve of His sacrifice. She rejoices in peace, knowing well that she is intimately associated with that prayer, and then exults greatly at seeing that invocation extend its efficacy with salutary fruit, even among those who are outside her fold.

*What? The Church as a person? You mean like the Body of Christ or whatnot? Listen, Buster. The Church is a fort. We don't want all those other folks being let into the Fort. They look different. And they smell funny and I can't understand what they are saying. We keep people OUT. Capiche?

Indeed, if one considers well this same unity which Christ implored for His Church, it seems to shine, as it were, with a triple ray of beneficent supernal light: namely, the unity of Catholics among themselves, which must always be kept exemplary and most firm; the unity of prayers and ardent desires with which those Christians separated from this Apostolic See aspire to be united with us; and the unity in esteem and respect for the Catholic Church which animates those who follow non-Christian religions.

*LOL Yeah, right. Like THEY are children of God.

In this regard, it is a source of considerable sorrow to see that the greater part of the human race -- although all men who are born were redeemed by the blood of Christ -- does not yet participate in those sources of divine grace which exist in the Catholic Church. Hence the Church, whose light illumines all, whose strength of supernatural unity redounds to theadvantage of all humanity, is rightly described in these beautiful words of St. Cyprian:

"The Church, surrounded by divine light, spreads her rays over the entire earth. This light, however, is one and unique and shines everywhere without causing any separation in the unity of the body. She extends her branches over the whole world. By her fruitfulness she sends ever farther afield he rivulets. Nevertheless, the head is always one, the origin one for she is the one mother, abundantly fruitful. We are born of her, are nourished by her milk, we live of her spirit' (De Catholicae Eccles. Unitate, 5).

Venerable brothers, such is the aim of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, which, while bringing together the Church's best energies and striving to have men welcome more favorably the good tidings of salvation, prepares, as it were and consolidates the path toward that unity of mankind which is required as a necessary foundation, in order that the earthly city may be brought to the resemblance of that heavenly city where truth reigns, charity is the law, and whose extent is eternity (Cf. St. Augustine, Epistle 138, 3).

Now, "our voice is directed to you" (2 Cor. 6:11 ) venerable brothers in the episcopate. Behold, we are gathered together in this Vatican Basilica, upon which hinges the history of the Church where heaven and earth are closely joined, here near the tomb of Peter and near so many of the tombs of our holy predecessors, whose ashes in this solemn hour seem to thrill in mystic exultation.

The Council now beginning rises in the Church like daybreak, a forerunner of most splendid light. It is now only dawn. And already at this first announcement of the rising day, how much sweetness fills our heart. Everything here breathes sanctity and arouses great joy. Let us contemplate the stars, which with their brightness augment the majesty of this temple. These stars, according to the testimony of the Apostle John (Apoc. 1:20), are you, and with you we see shining around the tomb of the Prince of the Apostles, the golden candelabra. That is, the Church is confided to you

(Ibid.). We see here with you important personalities, present in an attitude of great respect and cordial expectation, having come together in Rome from the five continents to represent the nations of the world.

We might say that heaven and earth are united in the holding of the Council -- the saints of heaven to protect our work, the faithful of the earth continuing in prayer to the Lord, and you, seconding the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in order that the work of all may correspond to the modern expectations and needs of the various peoples of the world.

This requires of you serenity of mind, brotherly concord moderation in proposals, dignity in discussion, and wisdom of deliberation.

God grant that your labors and your work, toward which the eyes of all peoples and the hopes of the entire world are turned, may abundantly fulfil he aspirations of all.

Almighty God! In Thee we place all our confidence, not trusting in our own strength. Look down benignly upon these pastors of Thy Church. May the light of Thy supernal grace aid us in taking decisions and in making laws.Graciously hear the prayers which we pour forth to Thee in unanimity of faith, of voice, and of mind.

O Mary, Help of Christians, Help of Bishops, of whose love we have recently had particular proof in thy temple of Loreto, where we venerated the mystery of the Incarnation dispose all things for a happy and propitious outcome and, with thy spouse, St. Joseph, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist, intercede for us to God.

To Jesus Christ, our most amiable Redeemer, immortal King of peoples and of times, be love, power, and glory forever and ever.

Stop making sense. It's unbecoming.

Amen. Don't forget that Thomism was DESPISED back in the say when it first appeared.

There is such little Faith. They do not trust the Church can select from any philosophy that which is safe to use in theologising. So, out of fear and lack of trust, they attack the very church which tries to nourish them

Few trust the Church established by Christ. Those who don't trust the Church resurrect, in their own lives, the heresy of Pelagius. They rely on themselves to save themselvs from this evil modern church.

:)

You know, brother, that by associating yourself with this Modern Pope you have identified yourself as a fellow-travelling, fifth columnist modernist,an enemy of Tradition, and one who is a useful idiot of the Pope, Council, Mass, which is, for the schism, the Ecclesiastical Axis of Evil

Dear bornacatholic,

"You know, brother, that by associating yourself with this Modern Pope you have identified yourself as a fellow-travelling, fifth columnist modernist,an enemy of Tradition, and one who is a useful idiot of the Pope, Council, Mass, which is, for the schism, the Ecclesiastical Axis of Evil"

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take a number.

;-)

sitetest

>It is important to understand that at Vatican II, Phenomenology replaced Scholasticism as the "thought of the Church."

Interesting observation, and it may be true. I will read Kobler's book. Have your read Fr. Jonathon Robinson's book on recovering the liturgy, The Mass and Modernity? It's excellent and he touches on this, although he, like the Pope in his address at Regensburg, locates the changinging philosophical conception much further back.

Livius: Sorry for the delay, but I had to dig around to find my copy, and then give it a good reread. I'm pretty sure you are the one who recommended the book to me in the first place many moons ago.

I'll go into more detail later. But let me start things off with these points.

* On a general level, there's nothing in Fr. Robinson's analysis of the problems caused by the Enlightenment with which I would disagree. OTOH, jumping from the Enlightenment to the Novus Ordo is a little like analyzing my life by looking at the decisions my grandparents and great-grandparents made. No doubt you could find a few things that explained my life by going back a couple generations. But it would really make more sense to look at my parents, my schooling, my friends, the jobs I've held, the books and tv shows and movies I've digested, etc.

* I can understand his POV that post-modernism is the fulfillment of the goals of the modernist project. Personally, I would quibble slightly with that. I don't think this would affect our differing analyses of the Novus Ordo Missae very much, but it probably would a little.

* I've never read anything by Iris Murdoch, and so have no opinion on whether she outlines the path of salvation for Catholic Church in the 21st century. (lol)

* Fr. Robinson skips past phenomenology quickly because he says he didn't see any influence of Heidegger in the documents of Vatican II. Well, neither would I. Wrong phenomenologist. He should have looked for the influence of Husserl. I don't know why Fr. Robinson ignored the books of Fr. Kobler on the subject.

* And all of the preceding would be backdrop to where we would have a stark disagreement. Fr. Robinson sees some problems in the structure of the Novus Ordo, but wants to believe that these problems have nothing to do with the texts of the Council documents.

He even advocates a reform of the Novus Ordo with elements of the Traditional Mass, that it may better carry out the Council's stated goal of bringing Christ to contemporary society.

I think that the structure of the Novus Ordo properly matches the intents of the Council documents. If there are any problems with the New Mass, they are rooted in the Husserlian perspective which permeates the documents.