| St. Peter and Rome |
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| 11/15/04 |
Posted on 10/27/2006 8:14:39 PM PDT by Salvation
| St. Peter and Rome |
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| 11/15/04 |
I have posted a lot of Irenaeus' quotes on this thread.
Seek and you will find.
And they will be in need of plenty of "lux" where they are headed.
Yea, and much out of context. Anything about allegory? Before I waste my time going through nearly 800 posts, I'd like to know...
By the way, are you saying that St. Irenaeus claims that St. Paul is a disciple of Simon the magician, because St. Paul HIMSELF uses allegory...
Regards
One more question uncle chip.
Are you a Christian?
How in the world can any church have the authority the RCC claims to have when anyone, who cares to, can just vote with his feet (or his heart) and gain all things possible to gain?
The scriptures say what they say. "Greek and the antiquity" has nothing to do with it. I am talking about in your face reality, people can and do what the scriptures say they can do, and are doing it now. It is observable, and the scriptures say this which is observable.
In the face of this observable, clear and present truth any interpretation of scriptures that say otherwise is ipso facto false. Period. 
Analogies seldom work properly. When my wife married me she did not become me but she legally became my heir to all that I own. Likewise, if I were to divorce someone they no longer have claim to my estate.
There are no different promises; one to the Jews and one to the Gentiles. We share the same promises because we are ONE in Christ; both Jews and Gentiles. God doesn't look down favorably on unbelievers who have rejected His Son.
The promise of the Land of Israel to the children of Israel [the faithful physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] was and is part of the package. It's a package deal and the Gentiles [nations], church or not, can either take it all or leave it all. If they want salvation, the children of Israel get the land as part of the promise to Abraham. No land for Israel, no blessing of salvation for the Gentile. It's all or nothing and its the Gospel truth.
I am not avoiding it -- I agree with it. But this has nothing to do with the issue of the Church authority. In fact, it has nothing to do with authority of the Scripture either. This is all one needs to dwell in the Kingdom of God:
16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? 21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.No Church is mentioned, and no scripture. But Christ gives us a warning: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven", and then "you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting."(Matthew 19, similar Mark 10, Luke 18)
Those who dedicate their lives to Christ, take a vow of celibacy and poverty, can gain the everlasting life: "many are called, but few chosen."
The rest of us, those with a family vocations, need prayers of others and we need to be fed. This is where the Church comes in. The notion that one can read the Bible in his spare time, make up his own mind about what it says, and end up in heaven is not absolutely wrong: little children are like this -- of course, if they are brought to Christ by their parents (Mt 19:13-15).
I assume you are an adult. The Church is your shepherd (Jn 21:15-17). It is one thing to get lost (Luke 15:4f), another to insist on following someone who, like Luther, decided to climb over the wall because he could not be bothered to find the door. (Jn 10:1)
Most intimately it does. How can a church have such authority as you describe when any individual ditch digger can do everything for himself and attain all without a church?
But Christ gives us a warning: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven",
And the Catholic and each ruling member therein is and are very rich, taking part in the mother wealth.
Those who dedicate their lives to Christ, take a vow of celibacy and poverty, can gain the everlasting life: "many are called, but few chosen."
But, you see, very few take such vows and god is not willing that any be lost. Obviously, such vows have nothing to do with gaining everlasting life. To take a vow of celebacy requires not physically copulating, which produces children. How then can Christian taught children be born if no Christian have any?
Are we saying that only those who have been denied the kingdom and everlasting life can have children?
Hogwash.
The notion that one can read the Bible in his spare time, make up his own mind about what it says, and end up in heaven is not absolutely wrong: l
LOL. It is absolutely right, to the exclusion of all else.
The Catholic church, like any other church, has indeed a mandate and spiritual authority. It is to humbly serve those who seek God and His kingdom, run a support group for those who may stray, and nothing else whatsoever. The Catholic church have such sovereignty that people give it, like any other artificial entity.
It can't be denied. You can look here in this writing, or there in that writing, and interpret as you like some writing that say water runs uphill, but the clear and observable fact is that water runs downhill, and every one can see it.
The Catholic church would try to sell you your own eyes! It was a scam, is a scam, has always been a scam, and you cannot see that because you believe your salvation rests upon what a material organization, a corporation says it is.
The Church has an authority over the teaching of Christ, because she received it, not the ditch digger. The latter may attain it -- the gospels I cited describe how, - but either he will discover the treasure of the Church for himself, or he will be lost.
the Catholic and each ruling member therein is and are very rich
Most people in the hierachy of the Church have taken vows of poverty.
Obviously, such vows have nothing to do with gaining everlasting life. To take a vow of celebacy requires not physically copulating, which produces children. How then can Christian taught children be born if no Christian have any?
Obviously? I cited you scripture a minute ago. It is true that other vocations beyond monastic life exist. But the need to renounce worldly possessions and attachments even in marriage is stated very clearly.
It is to humbly serve those who seek God and His kingdom, run a support group for those who may stray, and nothing else whatsoever.
This is not incorrect, yes. The Church is our shepherd. for example, when the Church guides us in properly understanding the veneration of saints or the meaning of scripture, this is exactly what she is doing. Let us not forget who is the protester here.
The Catholic church have such sovereignty that people give it
Scripturally wrong, and you know it. "I will build my Church". Not people's church.
scam
Would you mind not blaspheming the words of Christ?
Each human being on and off the planet can, at their decision receive the teaching and salvation of Christ. Jesus said He was the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except by Him. No church is mentioned.
. . .but either he will discover the treasure of the Church for himself, or he will be lost.
The notion that God would turn salvation or condemnation over to a artificial entity created by and run by fallible men is absurd.
Most people in the hierachy of the Church have taken vows of poverty.
A vow of poverty, when the wealth of a Babylon king are available to them who take it, for their use "for the church's business" is a sham.
Obviously? I cited you scripture a minute ago. It is true that other vocations beyond monastic life exist. But the need to renounce worldly possessions and attachments even in marriage is stated very clearly.
I read your citations and saw not one that could twisted to say the above. Who in the history of mankind has taken these vows? Hell must be full to running over.
And no man, whoever he may be, can take God's Book of Life and edit it to his own pleasure, or opinion. The names written there were written there before the Creation.
This is not incorrect, yes. The Church is our shepherd. for example, when the Church guides us in properly understanding the veneration of saints or the meaning of scripture, this is exactly what she is doing. Let us not forget who is the protester here.
An organization created and run by man doesn't presume to tell God's children, whose names are written in His book of Life since the foundation of the world, what His words mean or whether their souls are sufficiently pure to earn His salvation.
The veneration of any other that Christ and God is blasphemy.
Scripturally wrong, and you know it. "I will build my Church". Not people's church.
Men funded the Catholic church and men run it, it is man's church. Any notion that Jesus passed some sort of tyrannical power to judge men's souls to a fallible foundation of man is not scriptural, only by labored interpretation inconsistent with His teachings.
Would you mind not blaspheming the words of Christ?
It is not possible to blaspheme any work of man, and the words of Christ hold their testimony for any who care to read without dubious benefit of a Catholic priest's opinion, and they do not create an artificial entity to rule the spiritual condition or disposition of any man.
They give the option to any who read and believe Him, and have faith in His teachings.
No Church Necessary.
All church teach different doctrines, some greater in difference, some less. The founders thereof were men, like me and you. And all doctrines that conflict can't be right each one.
I use my mind, which God gave me to use, and my heart which has had His presence therein since childhood, and I use both these together to discern malarkey. And there is a lot of malarkey in the religious world.
You are not incorrect in your condemnation of "work of man", but you need to apply it to the likes of Luther, Calvin, and the dime-a-dosen self-made pastors in various Protestant communities of faith today. They twist the scripture, that is if they read it at all, to your satisfaction.
You can quote scripture all you like. If none say what you say it says the effort is vain. I realize you, and all Catholics, believe it says the priesthood say it says, and, what the priesthood says what it says is for the benefit and survival of their church.
They can not possible see it any other, as they are invested in the power the church gives them. That's not my problem; it is yours.
Superstition? Rituals are superstition. All that is needed is faith and belief, and those are found in the hearts, or not found in the hearts, of individual men.
The Catholic church, from my observation, is packed with scripture less superstition, not unlike those practiced by Wicca. Pardon me if I read what Christ says and hold to Him and His Father alone. It is what He says to do.
I do what He say, not what a group of men say.
You are not incorrect in your condemnation of "work of man", but you need to apply it to the likes of Luther, Calvin, and the dime-a-dosen self-made pastors in various Protestant communities of faith today. They twist the scripture, that is if they read it at all, to your satisfaction.
Oh, I most certainly do. I have seen and visited, and grew up with, many churches which are merely painted corpses. It gets worse as time draws on. . .
Who is "they" and where are "they headed"?
Good description.
The point remains that I read and understand and can explain the scripture that supports the Church authority in matters of faith. Your responses are not from scripture but from an anticlerical social prejudice.
This verse from Moses does not teach that "if it isn't clear from scripture then a person can't lay claim to the issue". Otherwise Joshua could never have written the book of Joshua. The fact that other writers added to Scripture after Moses shows that the verse does not mean that "if it isn't clear from scripture then a person can't lay claim to the issue". The existence of human authorities (e.g. Moses) is fully compatible with simultaneous injunctions not to add to or subtract from the Scriptures. That is because this injunction means that the Scriptures *themselves* should not be altered without divine authorization. The injunction does not mean that there cannot also simultaneously be true and authoritative Tradition, or that there cannot also simultaneously be divinely appointed and ordained human religious authorities.
Tell me, ... how do you determine who is speaking the truth and who isn't?
We look to the sacred Magisterium, as it has spoken throughout the history of the Church and as it now speaks.
What criteria do you use?
The criterion is agreement with the sacred Magisterium.
Based upon some council of men who tell you they have the Spirit of God?
Any group of men could *claim* to have the Spirit of God. The Apostles and early Church fathers taught that the gift of ordination was received by an act of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the Apostles hands. Only those who have received this gift can give this gift. That is why only bishops who can trace their orders back to the Apostles, and who are in communion with the bishop of Rome (who received in addition to epispocal orders Peter's keys), make up the living Magisterium.
-A8
There is a flaw in your logic. Look at the verse again:
Only those who have received this gift can give this gift. That is why only bishops who can trace their orders back to the Apostles, and who are in communion with the bishop of Rome
Ahhhh....the hidden clause....they can received a gift from God but they're not allowed to use it unless the Church states they can. Do we see a problem?
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