Posted on 10/23/2006 6:34:48 PM PDT by ROTB
AN OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT CONTROVERSY
With the love of Jesus in my heart and the Gospel of the New Testament of Jesus Christ in my mind, I attended a sermon on Psalm 35, purporting to give us insight as to how David asked God to inflict retribution on his enemies. "Let them be as chaff against the wind… Let the angel of the Lord persecute them."
I have a conflict with applying this Psalm today. I believe the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament when there is a conflict of what the Old Testament commanded then, and what Jesus now commands us to do now.
Jesus in Luke 6: 35 said, "But love ye your enemies and do good,… and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
For example: John and James wanted Jesus to exact retribution by raining fire and brimstone down on the land of the Samaritans. Why? Because the Samaritans would not house Jesus on his way to Jerusalem. Jesus told James and John. "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." He nicknamed them the "Sons of Thunder!" They were disciples, still learning, and not Apostles of the New Testament, yet.
We have a New Testament where Jesus died for our sins on the cross, and as he died he asked God to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." He asked God to forgive the Romans and the priests for murdering him. Not to subject them to retribution. The centurion said upon Jesus' death, "This man was truly the Son of God." Was this the beginning of a conversion or an outright conversion? Nicodemus, a priest, was truly saved. Jesus gave us a New Testament of love for our enemies. While it is hard to do, it is what Jesus requires of us.
As prophesied in the Old Testament by Jeremiah 31: 31 "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a New Covenant" with the House of Israel, and with the House of Judah: 32-Not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my Covenant they break, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33-But this be the Covenant that I will make with The House of Israel.
Jesus said to turn the other cheek. He instructed us not to hit back. He did warn the faithless and persecutors of retribution if they did not repent, but even He did not ask God the Father to exact retribution directly on anyone or any group, EVER!
The "Apostles" of Jesus Christ never asked Him to exact retribution on anyone as they spread the Gospel. They warned unbelievers of retribution and that is all.
Herod Agrippa arrested James. As James was led by a guard to his beheading the guard stopped, got down on his knees and asked James tearfully to forgive him and that he believed in the Lord. James kissed him on the forehead and said, "Peace be with you, [brother]!" James, like John the Baptist, talking to Agrippa's Uncle, no doubt warned Herod of the fires of hell that awaited him if he did not repent. But, James did not ask the Lord our God to exact any retribution on him. He left Herod to God.
Andrew suffered on the cross for two days before he died, ministering not only to the travelers on the road into Patras, Greece, but also to the Roman soldiers crucifying him. At no time did any Apostle of the Lord ask God to seek retribution for wrongs done to them. And many wrongs, as we know, were done to them. All of the original apostles, except for John, went to their deaths, ministering to their executioners as well as the travelers passing by. Sometimes, they were dying slowly and painfully, yet all the while informing them of the salvation of Jesus and that it was His gift to them and that they needed to believe in Him and the innocent blood He had shed for them.
Peter did emphasize to those who were at present "dead to the Lord," or in error, to correct their behavior or there would be retribution. But, at no time did he ask God, the Holy Spirit or Jesus to exact retribution for wrongs done to him by anyone and that included Roman and Jewish authority as well as unbelievers.
The Lord said, "Vengeance is mine!"
God will exact retribution on those as He sees fit and when He sees fit. Pray to Him for your deliverance, but do not pray to Him to persecute or kill your enemy. Pray for their conversion to Christianity.
Also, Judge not least ye be judged.
We should not be following the prcepts of the Old Testament if they are in conflict with the teachings of the New Testament. Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of the Old Testament and in so doing gave us the New Testament. It supersedes the Old Testament. Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. The priests tried to chastise Jesus for what they believed was his lack of respect for the Old Testament (Septuagint) laws. They tried to tell Jesus that he was breaking Old Testament rules. (Exodus Chap 20 Verse 10) Not to work on the Sabbath.
Jesus taught us to love our enemies not to hate them. He wants us to love everyone not just the elect. If we only love the elect, how will we be used by God to convert? You can only be used if you love and you must love even in the face of our physical death.
Jesus wants us to pray for them and their conversion. We are not to pray for retribution against them. Psalm 35 is in conflict with the teachings of Jesus.
Last but not least. 1 Corinthians Chapter 4 Verse 5 says: “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: And then shall every man have praise of God.” To even pray Psalm 35, we will be violating the commands set forth in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 4, Verse 5.
My friend and I attended our local "Mainline Evangelical Church" this past Sunday, and we heard what we suspect to be serious doctrinal error preached from the pulpit.
First thing during the Question and Answer time, my friend took the opportunity to point out the error in the teaching, but the preacher was adamant.
Before we fight this guns blazing, we wanted to run our first salvo in this fight by the faithful Christians of FreeRepublic, and make sure we're not making any wrong assumptions. We're not looking for stylistic, grammatical, or diction related errors (we'll fix 'em). We want to make sure we're on the money with regard to sound biblical exegesis, and doctrine before we fight this.
Thank you for your time,
ROTB
Perhaps this ought to go in "religion"?
later study ping
Perhaps you could redefine enemies King David might
have been lamenting the struggle within himself.
And asking God to remove the internal drives within him
which had caused him so much grief.
Your pastor might not have looked at it this way
but I think that that is the interpretation.
Another question for you would you
stand around preaching while someone was killing or torturing your family?
This turn the other cheek passage should not be taken
as a command to suicide, you are definitely a very confused person and I hope you regain clairty soon.
Another question for you would you
stand around preaching while someone was killing or torturing your family?
This turn the other cheek passage should not be taken
as a command to suicide, you are definitely a very confused person and I hope you regain clairty soon.
Your preacher is trying to trick you. Time to go somewhere else.
There is no conflict between the Old and the New Testament. Only bad Exegesis Y'shua had a conflict with the religious elite, The difference was the Holy Word of G-d You need a better understanding of the whole Word of G-d.
b'shem Y'shua
The same G-d wrote both the old and the new.
who imposed a thousand more rules for the Sabbath
than was required by G-d.
verses the man-made Traditions.
The minister is correct. Turning the other cheek is technically the right thing to do. That is what ultimately destroyed the Roman Empire. Today, it's harder because there are few who are fundamentalists in their hearts. Check catholicfundamentalism.com to see a new approach, God programmed enough particles to make the world, as we know it, in a week.
We are given free will on this world to see if we value Him more or less than what He created. One way we show that we value Him is obedience. Ergo, turn the other cheek.
AMEN!!!!
I agree with you! There is not really conflict between the old and the new.
Let me share something that might help you:
First, I have a high view of scripture. All of it, every word of the 66 books in our canon, is God's word. To disbelieve, disobey, or even doubt it is a sin, and it is our life's occupation to study it. Taking such a view will, surprisingly, lead to a wondrous and joyful adventure.
Having said that:
Recently I have listened to some insightful sermons of my pastor. (God has used this man for his glory.)
I am learning that one way to appreciate the Psalms is to realize they are the Psalmist's deepest emotions, poured out to God. Try to understand them in this way. When you use the words "apply", I am not sure it is absolutely the most helpful way to look at them. Of course, we apply all of God's word to our lives. However, there are some passages which would pose a problem if we tried to "apply them" in the way you seem to struggling with this Psalm (or the teaching you heard).
For instance, how do you apply, "Judas went out and hanged himself"? Well, you don't "apply" it, at least not in the same way you apply, "Show kindness to one another." Instead, you learn the whole context of the passage, find God's message, and learn from it.
One thing you can learn from the Psalms: You are free to pour out your emotions to God, completely, utterly, crying out and sobbing if you need to. You can say the wrong words. You can get your theology wrong when you pray to God. Be honest, ask him to help you, and throw yourself at him for mercy, strength and guidance.
He will always listen, loving you and planning special surprises to unleash in your life. You are completely safe. Absolutely, completely safe.
Read the Psalm again, and put yourself in the Psalmist's place. Where was he? What were his circumstances? Why was he having the emotions he was having?
One more thing to remember as a conservative. Liberals seem to have a problem with emotions. They live by them, celebrate them, and wallow in them. Emotions are a terrible guide when you need wisdom.
But conservatives have a problem with emotions as well, just a different one. They are afraid of them. They find it hard, especially in the company of other Christians, to admit to their deepest emotions, and are often offended by those who show them, especially the really scary, ugly and strong emotions.
Pray your fears. Pray your tears. Don't stuff them, don't celebrate them. That is what the Psalmist is doing. Emotions can be a wonderful path to a deeper prayer life, and, in the end, will eventually turn to praise. Read the very last few Psalms and see the unmitigated praise they convey.
Give this a bit of thought, read a couple of Psalms with this in mind, and let me know what you think.
Silly
Yah'shua, the name of the L-rd. His Name gives us hope as it do for David, Take comfort today in verse 3
b'shem Yah'shua
say unto my soul: 'I am Thy salvation.'
Rejoice -- YHvH has become my salvation.
YHvH has become my Salvation.
Psa 35:12 They repay me evil for good, To the bereavement of my soul. Psa 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth; I humbled my soul with fasting, And my prayer kept returning to my bosom.Psa 35:14 I went about as though it were my friend or brother; I bowed down mourning, as one who sorrows for a mother. Psa 35:15 But at my stumbling they rejoiced and gathered themselves together; The smiters whom I did not know gathered together against me, They slandered me without ceasing.
David did the Christian thing here while his enemies repaid him evil for good.
Psa 35:26 Let those be ashamed and humiliated altogether who rejoice at my distress; Let those be clothed with shame and dishonor who magnify themselves over me. Psa 35:27 Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; And let them say continually, "The LORD be magnified, Who delights in the prosperity of His servant."
Here, it looks like David wants his enemies brought low so they will humble themselves to the Lord.
Psa 35:17 Lord, how long will You look on? Rescue my soul from their ravages, My only life from the lions.
How long, Lord, will You look at this sinful planet before executing Your Judgement? Lord, I pray, you rescue my soul as well.
Wonderful insight, Silly!
I've often pointed friends to Psalms as a way of getting to know who God is, but in the last ten days or so, circumstances have changed.
I've had several friends dealing with such anguish in their lives, and wondering if they're freaks for feeling such despair, and for despairing that God is even around at all. On each occasion, I've been able to point to the longing and emotion with which David and others have written there... the doubt ("How long or Lord?"), the despair ("I am weary with sighing, Every night I make my bed swim, I dissolve my couch with my tears"). Through them, I've been able to point out that God truly understands what they're going through and has compassion for them.
God truly meets us where we live, and He understands even when we cry "WHY, GOD?" I'm also reminded of Isaiah's prophesy of Jesus, that He is a man aquainted with our sorrows. He knows what it's like to be misunderstood, to lose a friend, to be betrayed. And He loves and embraces and heals.
Thanks for such a good reminder.
Oops, sorry...Post #4
Great tagline!
Thanks.
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