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Monasteries and Madrassas: Five Myths About Christianity, Islam, and the Middle Ages
Crisis ^ | July 26 , 2006 | H. W. Crocker III

Posted on 09/02/2006 8:14:14 AM PDT by Petrosius


Monasteries and Madrassas:
Five Myths About Christianity, Islam, and the Middle Ages

By H. W. Crocker III

Does Islam need a Reformation? Not unless you think it would benefit from additional dollops of Puritanism; further encouragement to smash altars, stained glass, and other forms of ?idolatry?; prodding to ban riotous celebrations like Christmas and Easter; and support for fundamentalist Islamic schools that insist on sola Korana and sola Sunnah . Indeed, it would seem that Islam has already had its reformers. Railing against the corruption of the West (let's call it ?Rome? for short) have been such modern Islamic Luthers as the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the cave-dwelling Osama bin Laden, the voice of young Islam?the Taliban (literally, the Islamic students)?and the puritanical Wahhabi sect of Saudi Arabia, which is most assuredly modern as it was not even founded until the 18th century, the age of the Enlightenment.

What would a Reformation bring to Islam that it does not already have? The Calvinists imposed stiff penalties for infringements of dress codes and behavior, but these rules don't go beyond the sharia law of Saudi Arabia. Luther denied the divine right of the pope and affirmed the divine right of princes (uniting church and state, which were previously separate), but that doctrine is already well-established in Islam, where mosque and state are meant to be united. The Protestant reformers repudiated the Catholic Church for dallying too much with classical thinkers and decadent artists (like Raphael); many of them condemned the Catholic doctrine of free will (believing, as do the Muslims, in a kind of fatalism); and they damned Catholics for putting too much emphasis on Thomistic logic and reason, and not enough on the literal interpretation of the Scriptures.

No one accuses Islam of such sins. When it comes to taking Islam back to its pure, uncorrupted form, as embodied by the Prophet himself?an assassination-approving ? , polygamous leader of jihads?it would be hard to outdo bin Laden and his fellow reformers.

Granted, the West is not what it once was. Rather than Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, we have Andres Serrano and his infamous Piss Christ . Instead of the optimism of the Renaissance, we have the modern (pagan) pessimism that sees Nature's gods plotting their revenge on over-populating, polluting humanity. Instead of a confident West seizing its imperial mission to spread peace, commerce, and Christian charity and morality, the modern West is ambivalent about asserting its own values. There are even some in the West?including its Muslim converts?who think the Mohammedans' stronger strictures against abortion, homosexuality, and secularism (if not Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, et al .) give them a certain moral superiority over such as the Dutch and liberals everywhere. Still, this remains, I trust, a minority view.

But let it suffice that clearly Islam does not need a Reformation. If the printing press, as it is often said, fanned the Protestant revolt against united Christendom, the Internet has just as surely fanned the Islamist revolt against the West. We've had quite enough jihadists posting their ?I protest? theses on the Internet, thank you very much.

But if Islam doesn't need a Reformation, it would definitely benefit from a Counter-Reformation. Just think of it. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Kabul were to become a center of baroque art, if the street corners of Tehran were dotted with choral groups singing the hymns of Palestrina, if the vibrant artists' quarter of Islamabad were full of painters dabbling in the style of Rubens, Caravaggio, and Poussin? Ah, yes, if only. Alas, few expect this to happen within our lifetimes?or ever.

Despite the alleged glories of Islam's past, we're told that militant Islam is now stuck in the Middle Ages. But Islam is no more stuck in the Middle Ages than it is stuck in the Renaissance or the Counter-Reformation. As Margaret Thatcher's official biographer (and Catholic convert) Charles Moore has written, ?? Mediaeval' should not be a synonym for ?barbarous.' Ely Cathedral and trial by jury and Giotto are mediaeval.? So, indeed, are the Magna Carta, Chaucer, and Dante. So are the great monastic orders, the invention of the university, and the development of science. So are chivalry, capitalism, and the idea of progress. We don't associate any of these things with modern (or for that matter, historical) Islam.

Granted, the Middle Ages represent a thousand years of history, and the early Middle Ages (roughly 500 to 1000 A.D.), sometimes known as the Dark Ages, certainly had their chiaroscuro moments. The rough playfulness of the Vikings was not universally admired. If you were a pope between the waning days of the ninth century and the opening of the eleventh, you had about a one in three chance of being murdered in office, and survivors could be exiled or deposed. And aside from a variety of barbarians, Magyars, and Mongols, there were the Muslims who in this period jihaded their way over half of Christendom, and were only kept from completely swamping the West by the valiant Charles Martel, who defeated them at the Battle of Tours (and at subsequent battles).

But chiaroscuro is both light and dark, and there was light in the early Middle Ages. It shone most brightly in the monasteries, which not only?and famously?preserved classical learning, but also led the West in innovation in agriculture, technology, and trade. The Church provided schools, charitable houses, and the theological rationale for abolishing slavery (as it was abolished in the medieval West, while flourishing in Islam, which was then enjoying its alleged ?Golden Age?). Being still Roman, the Church took on many of Rome's administrative governmental duties as well.

The achievements of the ?Dark Ages? were monumental. As the historian Christopher Dawson noted, ?In reality that age witnessed changes as momentous as any in the history of European civilization; indeed, as I suggest in [ The Making of Europe ] it was the most creative age of all, since it created not this or that manifestation of culture, but the very culture itself?the root and ground of all the subsequent culture achievements [of Europe].? Here, as Dawson adds, the Catholic historian has the advantage because he can better understand that these were ?not dark ages so much as ages of dawn, for they witnessed the conversion of the West, the foundation of Christian civilization, and the creation of Christian art and Catholic liturgy.?

The result was that Europe blossomed in the high and late Middle Ages (1000 to 1500). Wealth and learning spread, and in place of the ruins of Rome, medieval man created a society that was far more humane, far more respectful of women, far more elevating of the individual, far more bourgeois (that is, with a far larger middle class), and far more inventive than the glorious civilizations of the Classical world. The Middle Ages were a wonderful bloom of their own even before they flowered into the Renaissance.

Islam, it should be clear, is not stuck in any previous incarnation of the West, and it is certainly not stuck in the Middle Ages, the Catholic ?Age of Faith,? when monks, priests, farmers, merchants, kings, bishops, and knights created the dynamic civilization?the admixture of Classical, Catholic, and Germanic culture?that is the West. Even in his humblest estate, as a peasant, medieval man was not Taliban man. His assumptions were wildly different. He believed in a suffering Christ who came into the world as a helpless babe and died on the cross, rather than in a conquering prophet who thought it blasphemous to believe God would lower Himself to such indignities. Medieval man believed in honoring God and making merry and for this world gave not a cherry, to paraphrase the poet (and priest) William Dunbar, ?the Chaucer of Scotland.? While medieval man loved feasts, celebrations, gay colors, and merrymaking, he also believed that service, labor, and commerce were honorable; that self-improvement and progress were possible; and that God had created a world that every man could understand through reason, so that every common farmer?no matter his vassalage to his feudal lord?could find ways to improve his agricultural techniques, improvements that benefited himself as well as his lord, because every man was entitled to his own rightful share of his labors.

He was, as we are, Western man, with everything that assumes. As the popular medieval scholar Morris Bishop put it, even today (or in 1968, when he was writing), ?A highland farmer in Macedonia, a shepherd in the Auvergne mountains, live a life more medieval than modern. An American pioneer of the last century, setting out with oxcart, axe, plow, and spade to clear a forest farm, was closer to the Middle Ages than to modern times. He was self-sufficient, doctoring himself and his family with herbs, raising his own food, pounding his own grain, bartering with rare peddlers, rejoicing in occasional barn dances for all the world like medieval karoles .? The American pioneer and the medieval peasant were us, and we were them, and neither one of us is Muslim. And for some of us, the idea of conversing with a man from the Middle Ages (or from the American frontier) is a much more attractive prospect than the thought of trying to converse with an iPod-attached, text-messaging 20-something whose life is lived in the aptly named ?blogosphere.?

The myth of the barbarous Middle Ages is part of the ignorance of our age. Protestants originally propounded the myth, secularists have promoted it, and the facts deny it. So let us sally forth like medieval knights to lance five of the biggest myths about the Middle Ages.

Myth One: Medieval Christendom was barbarous, while Islam was refined .

Since we've been talking about the Mussulmen, let's start with the myth that in the Middle Ages, Christendom was barbarous, while Islam was refined. Here's a simple test: Have you ever heard and enjoyed Gregorian chant? If you're lucky, you've done more than that; you've actually heard the work of medieval composers performed on period instruments. Both the music and the instruments are recognizably our own. It bridges naturally to what most people generically call ?classical music.? (Our system of
musical notation dates from the Middle Ages, coming from the monasteries, and most especially from the eleventh-century Benedictine monk Guido D'Arezzo.) Mohammed, on the other hand, like his Talibanic followers, prohibited music. Allah, he said, commanded him to abolish musical instruments, and warned that ?Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress??or, needless to say, a medieval troubadour.

Thanks to Danish cartoonists, we're all pretty familiar with Islamic attitudes about drawing or painting a likeness of Allah or his Prophet. The Prophet himself, however, actually forbade to his people any visual art that represented any form of fauna, from men to cattle, which puts rather a crimp on artistic freedom?freedom that was widely enjoyed in the Middle Ages, let alone the Renaissance. While Islamic architecture is rather attractive?to my taste, anyway?it is not often noted that it took its inspiration from Byzantium, and in some cases was even built by Byzantine workers. Islamic literature?aside from The Thousand and One Nights and a handful of other poems or stories?is paltry compared with the Western stuff; and unlike the Western stuff, it is largely the work of dissenters and heretics. It seems that Muslim literateurs have always tended to play the role of Salman Rushdie to the reigning imams.

As for science, mathematics, and technology, the Muslims were quite good at preserving and adopting the Classical heritage of the Christians (and the achievements of the Zoroastrian Persians and Hindus) whom they conquered. They were rather less good at going beyond it, which is one very large reason why the West made progress and Islam did not. The other big reason is that while Western medieval churchmen taught natural law and that God had created a rational and orderly universe, Islamic theologians countered that nothing?certainly not reason?could limit the power of Allah; he was beyond all such constraints; and Muslim leaders were contemptuous of the West. In the twelfth century, Muslim philosophers emphatically turned against the pagan Classics. Practical Western man, on the other hand, cared not for Muslim religion, but he was certainly willing to accept and advance on Islamic learning, just as he accepted and advanced on Classical learning. The West's adoption of Arabic numerals (and the zero, which the Mussulmen got from the Hindus) is one striking example. Another is that when the Islamic philosopher Averroes wrote his glosses on Aristotle, they were more influential in the West than they were in the Islamic world. And the much-maligned Crusaders were no bigots?they happily adopted Eastern foods and dress and trade.

It was not medieval man whose civilization faced a millennium of marching into the darkness; it was the Mussulman. By the end of the Dark Ages, Islam's ?Golden Age? was just about finished. As Norman Cantor, the celebrated scholar of the Middle Ages, has written, ?The Islamic world had not yet entered its deep decline in 1050?but by and large the greatest days of Islam had ended?. In the year 1050, in every country in western Europe, there were groups of people engrossed in some kind of novel enterprise. Europe no longer lagged far behind Byzantium and Islam in any way, and in some respects it had surpassed the greatest achievements of the two civilizations with which the Latin-speaking peoples now competed for hegemony in the Mediterranean.? The West was always inventive?even in the Dark Ages. It is part of our spirit, just as the supremacy of the Koran before all else is part of the spirit of Islam.

Then as today, fundamentalist Islamic schools drilled their students in rote recitation of the Koran. Catholic schools, then as now, taught religion, philosophy, mathematics (from accounting to higher mathematics), and Latin, among other subjects. It is a common Protestant jab that Catholics don't know Holy Scripture. It's a jab one can't make at a madrassa -educated Muslim.

In the Middle Ages, it is true, most Catholics knew Scripture from what they heard in church or saw represented in stained-glass windows or what they read?or heard recited?from such books as The Heliand , the Saxon Gospel wherein Christ the Champion enters Fort Jerusalem for the last mead-hall feast with His warrior companions. But they accepted the teachings of their authoritative Church and kept themselves busy building breweries, creating intoxicating liquors, laying roads, building towns, and inventing and mass-producing the stirrup, the horse harness, and the water mill (technically, the water mill was invented by the Romans, who made but slight use of it; it came into its own in the Middle Ages). They also created an agricultural revolution with three-field crop rotation and improved agricultural tools and technology, product specialization, land and naval transportation, and the sanctification of commerce.

The sole cultural advance that one might grant Islam over the medieval West is the invention of the harem. Nevertheless, even the male chauvinist might think that the harem rather shortchanges women. The rationalist might add that it creates social pressures that can be rather unhealthy (leaving lots of unattached, untamed men about). The churchman might reasonably add that the celibate monks, nuns, and priests made rather better use of their sexual sacrifice than did the eunuchs who guarded the harems. The Western clothier would suspect that the burkha was invented to hide some of the shortcomings (by Western standards) of the odalisques. And finally, medieval monarchs, like modern Western man, could always get around Church teaching by practicing serial hypocrisy rather than by stockpiling women in special quarters. This monarchical practice has filtered down into business management where overstocked warehouses (harems) have given way to ?just-in-time inventory? (serial monogamy), another tribute to Western efficiency.

Myth Two: Medieval women were oppressed.

While we're on the subject of the fairer sex, let's dispense with the feminist idea that the Catholic Middle Ages were an era of oppression against women. That's rather hard to square, on the face of it, with medieval devotion to the Virgin Mary; the medieval invention of courtly, romantic love; the practice of chivalry; and the existence of queens and princesses. In every case, we have men making pledges of loyalty, fidelity, honor, and protection to women?women, it might be noted, with power and favor, whether it be royal, romantic, or divine.

The New Testament has a rather higher estimation of women than does the Koran. Jesus consistently treats women with respect. Christians, from the beginning, did as well. The idea of woman as a ?sex object? is profoundly un-Christian in a way that it is not unpagan or un-Islamic. Christianity has no temple prostitutes or harems, no slave girls or houris. The New Testament never recommends scourging women, nor does it compare women to a field to be plowed (as the Koran does). In Islamic law, divorce is a matter of three words (?I divorce you?); women are property, and women have essentially two purposes (you can guess what these are).

In the medieval West, both polygamy and divorce were illegal. Women could govern from thrones or pontificate from the libraries of nunneries, and they could rule the roost of a middle-class home just as any other Western hausfrau has done over the last 2,000 years. Women were free to dress as they liked and could go to the tavern?even brew the beer?if they liked. They held jobs and learned crafts and trades. If peasants, they worked the land with their husbands. They could become saints and lead men into battle (like Joan of Arc). Especially if they were in religious orders, they were well-represented in elementary education, nursing, and the other ?caring professions? (as we would call them today). If they were noblewomen, they inherited and wielded property (and received all due feudal obligations), joined their husbands on hunts (or on Crusades), and went to a court school where they were taught art, manners, and household management (everything from medicine to oenology, from sewing to accounting, from gardening to how to handle servants). They were also patrons of the arts. If women were barred from classical schools and universities, which they were, it was less on Christian grounds, strictly speaking, than on classical ones?on the Aristotelian insight that women are the subordinate sex.

Just how ?subordinate? women were might be seen in the bawdy?and quite ?liberated??Wife of Bath in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales . She should put paid to any idea that medieval women were oppressed. The Wife of Bath, after all, selects her husbands?five in total?on the basis of money (she boasts of picking the first three clean of cash before they died) or manly chests, including the handsome pallbearer of the fourth. She finds happiness with her fifth (and favorite) husband after trading blows with him and convincing him of her rights. (The fight starts when she angrily rips a page from the book he has been reading aloud, The Book of Wicked Wives .) In all this, she cites Scripture, noting that ?I have the power during al my lif / Upon his proper body, and nat he: / Right thus th'Apostle tolde it unto me, / And bad oure husbandes for to love us weel.? Her tale?and life?is rather more hilarious and scandalous than today's ?medieval? Islam would allow. In the Western Middle Ages, however, she was a recognized type, as she would be if she were plopped down in your living room today.

Myth Three: Medieval culture was crude and ignorant.

Chaucer brings us face to face with medieval culture, and far from being crude and ignorant, we regard it as being a still-bright feature of our literary heritage. If medieval castles and cathedrals, art, crafts, and music aren't enough; if Beowulf , the Song of Roland , the Poem of the Cid , and the Morte D'Arthur don't speak to you; if Boethius, Boccaccio, Dante, Petrarch, and Machiavelli are as nothing; if you have no respect for St. Anselm, St. Francis, and St. Thomas Aquinas, to select a mere handful of the literary riches of the period, there's really not much more to say.

Myth Four: Medieval politics were despotic.

Similarly, medieval politics were neither crude and ignorant, nor totalitarian and despotic. Far from it; the Middle Ages?from the start?practiced separation (and conflict) between church and state. It was the Reformation, the desire of the state to absorb the Church, that combined church and state with the creation of state churches. Medieval politics supported a wide dispersion of power, which is what feudalism was, and why England's nobles?led by the Catholic archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton?were able to hold King John accountable with the Magna Carta. Medieval man believed in the great hierarchy of society, where every man and woman had rights and responsibilities and was individually responsible before God.

Medieval man was never threatened by totalitarianism. A totalitarian state was not even possible until the Reformation abolished the Church as a check on state power. Before that, feudalism preserved an extreme form of federalism, where even city-states (like Italy's merchant republics) flourished. In the Middle Ages, not only could a merchant launch his own business, but twelve-year-old enthusiasts could launch their own Crusade (the Children's Crusade), and a failed crusader like St. Francis could launch his own religious movement. The Middle Ages might be torn by war, conquests, political rivalries, knightly jostlings, and wars against the Albigensian heretics or the Muslim infidels. But politically, the Middle Ages were, if anything, a time when the dispersal of secular power was closer to anarchy than despotism, and the Church was generally on the side of political?if not religious?libertarianism in order to protect itself from ambitious monarchs and princes.

Myth Five: The Middle Ages were uniquely violent.

The Middle Ages were certainly violent enough, but they had no Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. The Middle Ages did have its inquisitors, but the various myths surrounding the inquisitions are nowadays pretty well debunked, and anyone who wants to can know from the relevant historical scholarship that the inquisitional courts of the Middle Ages did not strike fear into the people of Western Europe. Their scope was limited, their trials and punishments more lenient than those of their secular counterparts. Inquisitional punishment was often no more than penance, and throughout much of Europe, the inquisition never appeared at all. It was not a major feature of the Middle Ages. From its 13th-century imposition against the Albigensians through the Spanish Inquisition?the most ?notorious? inquisition, which operated under a royal rather than a papal charter?the history of inquisitional courts runs over the course of roughly 600 years, expiring in early 19th-century Spain. In the 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition, for which meticulously kept records have been preserved, the grand total of those sentenced to death is perhaps 4,000.

When it comes to body counts, the thousand years of the Middle Ages can't come close to the hecatombs of the enlightened 20th century. If the wars of the Age of Faith are to be regarded as a scandal that discredits Christianity, what are we to surmise from the state-authorized genocides, mass murders, and class eliminations of the pagan national socialists and the atheistic communists, who managed in the course of 70 years, less than one man's lifetime, to kill incomparably more people?by a factor of untold tens upon tens upon tens of millions?than were killed in the entirety of the Middle Ages?

There was fighting aplenty in the Middle Ages. There were outrages on the battlefield, murders in cathedrals, and massacres in cities. But modern man is in no position to sit in judgment on medieval man as his moral inferior. In the Middle Ages, the national socialists would have been denounced as heretical, a papal Crusade would have been called against them, and today we would be reading books about how the Catholic Church violently and unjustly suppressed?through inquisition and Crusade?a ?heretical? German movement that only wanted to wear shorts, hike through the forests, sing pagan songs, free the people from Romish superstition, advance secular learning and science, and break the political and religious power of Rome. We've heard that story many times before, as with the romanticization of the Cathars.

But medieval man has had to suffer many such slurs, from the myth that he believed the world was flat (a myth foisted against him by anti-Catholic propagandists in the 19th century) to the myth that Islamist homicide bombers are ?stuck in the Middle Ages? rather than part and parcel of 21st-century Islam. The Middle Ages were more glorious and commendable than many seem to know. Medieval man deserves our toasting tankards; better medieval man than MTV or al-Jazeera man. Cheers.

? The original ?assassins? were dissident Shiites; the word is Arabic;
Mohammed himself urged his followers to ?kill any Jew that falls into your power.?


H. W. Crocker III is the author most recently of Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church: A 2,000-Year History . His prize-winning comic novel The Old Limey and his book Robert E. Lee on Leadership are available in paperback. His latest book, Don't Tread on Me: A 400-Year History of America at War, from Indian-Fighting to Terrorist-Hunting , will be published this September.



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Islam; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: churchhistory; middleages; myth; reformation; zaq
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

"Spend a few months reading some good histories of the Middle Ages, and then we can have an informed conversation."

Uh, rocket scientist, as I already noted, I spent well over a decade reading most of the best books ever written about medieval history when I was a graduate student. I have a PhD in Medieval History. Since I already pointed this out to you it is apparent that you didn't even read the post I wrote. This says more about your literacy and intentions to learn the truth than anything you can opine about medieval clerics. Thank you for so easily proving you have absolutely no interest in being well informed.

"Secular clergy in the Middle Ages had no education."

(sigh) Then who were all of those clerics at all of those medieval universities? Who were all of those students at all of those cathedral schools? How about all of the students at all of those monastic schools? Who were they?

Your reply is absurd! It isn’t even rational.


University of Bologna – founded 1088
University of Paris – founded 1150
University of Oxford – founded before 1167
University of Modena – founded 1175
University of Regio – founded 1188
University of Vicenza – founded 1204
University of Cambridge – founded 1209
University of Palencia – founded 1212
University of Arezzo – founded 1215
University of Salamanca – founded 1218
University of Padua – founded 1222
University of Naples – founded 1224 by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor
University of Toulouse – founded 1229
University of Siena – founded 1240
University of Valencia – founded 1245
University of Piancenza – founded 1248
University of Valladolid – founded 1250
University of Sevilla – founded 1254
Sorbonne (at the University of Paris) – founded 1257
University of Montpellier – founded 1289
University of Coimbra – founded 1290 (in Lisbon)
University of Rome La Sapienza – founded 1303
University of Macerata – founded 1290
University of Lisbon – founded 1290
University of Lérida – founded 1300
University of Avignon – founded 1303
University of Orléans – founded 1306
University of Perugia – founded 1308
University of Coimbra – founded 1308
University of Treviso – founded 1318
University of Cahors – founded 1332
University of Angers – founded 1337
University of Pisa – founded 1338
University of Grenoble – founded 1339
Charles University of Prague – founded 1348
University of Florence – founded 1349
University of Perpignan – founded 1350
Jagiellonian University, Krakow – founded 1364
University of Vienna – founded 1365
University of Pécs – founded 1367
University of Erfurt – founded 1379
University of Heidelberg – founded 1385
University of Cologne – founded 1388
University of Ferrara – founded 1391 by papal bull
University of Zadar – founded 1396
University of Fermo – founded 1398 by papal bull
University of Leipzig – founded 1409
University of St Andrews – founded 1413
University of Rostock – founded 1419
University of Leuven – founded 1425
University of Barcelona – founded 1450
University of Glasgow – founded 1451 by papal bull
University of Greifswald – founded 1456
University of Basel – founded 1460
University of Bratislava (Universitas Istropolitana) – founded 1465
University of Uppsala – founded 1477
University of Copenhagen – founded 1479
University of Aberdeen – founded 1495

“There only requirement was to say the Mass.”

No. They also officiated at baptisms, weddings, funerals, blessings, recording of records, handled parish roles, parish accounts, etc. You are completely clueless about much.

“They lived with woman and had children with them.”

Some did. Some didn’t. Especially after the tenth and eleventh centuries when celibacy started to be demanded by bishops and councils.

“All of this was accepted by the villagers.”

To some extent yes. But you are forgetting that even peasants knew when the priest was not living up to his vows. Common people begged St. Francis to stop their local priest from violating his vows by openly living with a woman. They all expected St. Francis to rebuke the priest, in other words, chew him out. He didn’t, but he did stop the priest nonetheless. There are many examples of common people, yes, even peasants being upset that their local priest was not celibate when he was supposed to be.

“This is all very well documented by historians of that period.”

Again, you are simply throwing up stereotypes.

“You are projecting the Counter Reformation onto the Middle Ages.”

No, I am not. I know the difference. Every example or fact I cited IS FROM BEFORE THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION. Get a clue. If you can’t tell the difference between generally before 1500 and well after the mid-century then you have a serious problem.

“You will need to set aside you religious prejudices to look at the facts of history objectively.”

I did. It was called graduate school. That’s what made me a Catholic. I showed up with religious prejudices. I left educated and Catholic. Wish you could claim the same.


21 posted on 09/02/2006 5:28:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

How “stripes1776” is changing his story:

Originally in post #18, stripes1776 wrote the following: “At the time of the Reformation, the typical Catholic priest was an uneducated peasant who know no Latin except what he memorized for the Mass and pronounced very badly.”

Notice the time reference: “At the time of the Reformation…” That would have to be about 1520. Keep that in mind.

Also, notice who we are talking about: “…the typical Catholic priest…” First of all, what does that mean? That seems like a very loosely identified person indeed!

Stripes, however, has now refined the identity of the “typical Catholic priest” to be (as he wrote in post #20): "Secular clergy in the Middle Ages had no education." So now it is “secular clergy”. In other words, we are now told it is diocesan clergy who “had no education” in the Middle Ages. So even though there were literally tens of thousands of chapels and churches run by order clergy they aren’t typical?

And does that “Middle Ages” reference now mean we are no longer talking about “At the time of the Reformation”?

How will stripes change or refine his tune next?

When will he actually present any evidence to bolster his assertions? Stay tuned.


22 posted on 09/02/2006 5:50:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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bttt


23 posted on 09/02/2006 6:12:30 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: vladimir998
sigh) Then who were all of those clerics at all of those medieval universities?

You are talking about the late Middle Ages after the Gregorian Reforms. Before that, secular clergy did not have an education, and they had concubines and illegitimate children. And none of this shocked the villagers. It was just accepted as the way things were done. That is the way it was for many centuries. I am talking about the vast majority of the priests who were poor at the bottom of the church hierarchy. The situation was quite different with the bishops who were from wealthy aristocratic families.

As your list shows, there were few universities until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries--late in the Middle Ages. And who were those who attended? The sons of wealthy aristocrats and later rich merchants from the growing towns who could afford the tuition. These were the people who got the jobs at high levels in the church hierarchy, like bishop--a post that came with a very high income and only went to aristocratic sons and the wealthy--and other privileged clergy.

24 posted on 09/02/2006 6:25:02 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

"You are talking about the late Middle Ages after the Gregorian Reforms."

Generally, yes. And you were too if you believe "At the time of the Refomation" came AFTER the Gregorian Reforms, which it did. Are you now claiming to be talking about ONLY before the Gregorian Reforms? That was before the middle of the 11th century. Last time I checked the Reformation was in the sixteenth century. Just as I predicted, you're changing your story again.

"Before that, secular clergy did not have an education, and they had concubines and illegitimate children."

All of them really? Every last one of them? So, if every single diocesan priest had a concubine then why would they pretend that the children were not their's, as you imply, by calling them "nephews" as you claim? Your story is unraveling. Please cite a reputable source that says ALL pre-mid-11th century secular clergy had no education whatsoever, and had concubines. Could you do that for me?

"And none of this shocked the villagers. It was just accepted as the way things were done. That is the way it was for many centuries. I am talking about the vast majority of the priests who were poor at the bottom of the church hierarchy."

Oh, so now it isn't ALL diocesan, secular priests, but the "vast majority of priests who were poor"? So your story has changed even in this post?

"The situation was quite different with the bishops who were from wealthy aristocratic families."

How? Did having wealth make them less likely to have concubines and children or more likely to be educated? And if there were wealthy bishops of aristocratic birth then were the part of the ALL of just not part of the VAST MAJORITY?

"As your list shows, there were few universities until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries--late in the Middle Ages. And who were those who attended? The sons of wealthy aristocrats and later rich merchants from the growing towns who could afford the tuition."

(sigh) Some nobles did indeed attend. Some merchants' did as well. But the VAST MAJORITY of both students and professors were clerics, both secular and regular. This is a fact. Anyone would know this if they ever had to read over a matriculation role from a medieval university. I had to do it for German universities. Who founded almost every single one of these universities? The Church. Who attended? Mostly churchmen.

"These were the people who got the jobs at high levels in the church hierarchy,..."

Whoa! So they weren't nobles and merchants, but CHURCHMEN in other words of noble birth and the merchant class? Again, your story is changing.

"... like bishop--a post that came with a very high income and only went to aristocratic sons and the wealthy--and other privileged clergy."

1) Not all bishops were of noble birth. (Just as not all knights were of noble birth by the way). You are once again making an ALL statement that doesn't work.

2) There are ready examples of bishops who were only noble on one side of their family or not noble at all. St. Wulfstan of Worchester comes to mind. He was noble on his mother’s side. His mother’s brother was also a bishop. He became bishop in 1062 and was not effected by the Gregorian Reforms since his earlier monastic training was already reformed since the tenth century. Just before the Protestant Revolution you also have the example of Tamás Bakócz who was the son of a wheelwright, attended the universities of Cracow, Ferrara and Padova and later became bishop of Gyr in Hungary. There are other examples, but would you even consider then if I spent the time hunting for them?


By the way, since you falsely accuse me of putting the “counter Reformation” into the Middle Ages I might as well go ahead and cite a book that would prove that case if I made it (which I haven’t): Joseph Bergin, Crown, Church and Episcopate under Louis XIV, (New Haven, Connecticut, Yale University Press, 2004). He went over the careers of 600 French bishops and discovered exactly how many were NOT of noble birth. Check it out maybe?


25 posted on 09/02/2006 7:40:51 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

Could you add to that average Russian factory worker circ 1900?


26 posted on 09/02/2006 7:57:28 PM PDT by kawaii
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To: kawaii

Sorry, I have no idea what the info is on that. Maybe that link will take you to the info?

I think Orthodox Russia would be very serious about ceasing work on Sundays and important feast days. Just my guess mind you.


27 posted on 09/02/2006 8:00:57 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: kawaii

Actually I found a possible answer!

230 days of work. Here's the problem: I went to google and typed in something like "annual average work hours Russia 1900." The google results came up. I went to one page (I used the cached page to scan read quickly) and just when I found a possible answer my computer froze up and my internet connection died. I have no idea why.

Well, I tried, but can't find it again. It's at marxism.org in the history archives if I am not mistaken. It had a referenced citation. Before I could look at it my computer froze up!


28 posted on 09/02/2006 8:35:34 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Generally, yes. And you were too if you believe "At the time of the Refomation" came AFTER the Gregorian Reforms, which it did. Are you now claiming to be talking about ONLY before the Gregorian Reforms? That was before the middle of the 11th century. Last time I checked the Reformation was in the sixteenth century. Just as I predicted, you're changing your story again.

I was making a generalization about the Middle Ages. It is a very long period, roughly 450-1500 AD. The vast majority of priests in that period were poor and uneducated. The Gregorian reforms did bring some some changes. There several reform movements throughout that 1000 year period we call the Middle Ages. If they had been more successful, a Catholic like Martin Luther wouldn't have started his reform movement.

"Before that, secular clergy did not have an education, and they had concubines and illegitimate children."

All of them really? Every last one of them? So, if every single diocesan priest had a concubine then why would they pretend that the children were not their's, as you imply, by calling them "nephews" as you claim? Your story is unraveling. Please cite a reputable source that says ALL pre-mid-11th century secular clergy had no education whatsoever, and had concubines. Could you do that for me?

Again, that is a generality. It describes the general situation.

Oh, so now it isn't ALL diocesan, secular priests, but the "vast majority of priests who were poor"? So your story has changed even in this post?

Not at all. The vast majority of priests were poor and uneducated. That is a generality. You could find a priest who wasn't poor, for example a bishop, but exceptions do not disprove a generality. The vast majority of priests were poor.

Not all bishops were of noble birth. (Just as not all knights were of noble birth by the way). You are once again making an ALL statement that doesn't work.

Again, I'm not making an ALL statemen. I am making a generality that describes the usual situation. Only a wealthy vassal with land could afford to raise horses and train to be a knight (calvary man). He would have had serfs working the land, or vassals below him in charge of the land. As for bishops, that job went to the sons of aristocrats, that is to say landed vassals as well, because a great deal of land and money came with the office. You can drag up all the exceptions you want. An exception doesn't disprove a generality.

By the way, since you falsely accuse me of putting the “counter Reformation” into the Middle Ages

That's now what I said. I said in effect that I thought you were bringing modern suppositions to your reading of the history of the Middle Ages. That is what projection means in the context I used it.

29 posted on 09/02/2006 10:08:20 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776
Priests ranged in academic accomplishment much as do Protestant ministers do today: from Biblical scholars to the ignoramus with a Bible in his hands. You have imbibed the propaganda of Cranmer's commissioners who claimed that the monks were all dolts so as to justify the confiscation of their estates(10% of the lands of the kingdom) and the suppression of monasticism.
30 posted on 09/02/2006 10:48:30 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: stripes1776

The quality of the clergy depended on the quality of the Lord who provided them with a living. Pluralism also left many livings in the hands of the untrained. But you are also neglecting the role of the religious orders.
They went from place to place providing the preaching that was neglected by the local clergy, almost armed with Paris Bibles in the pockets of their gowns, thousands of which are still preserved, to use as the basis of their sermons. San Bernadino preaches to huge crowds, much as Wesley was to do in 18th Century England. Preaching by university trained clergy was available in the larger churches. Luther is the type of this sort of priest.


31 posted on 09/02/2006 11:00:44 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
The quality of the clergy depended on the quality of the Lord who provided them with a living. Pluralism also left many livings in the hands of the untrained. But you are also neglecting the role of the religious orders. They went from place to place providing the preaching that was neglected by the local clergy, almost armed with Paris Bibles in the pockets of their gowns, thousands of which are still preserved, to use as the basis of their sermons. San Bernadino preaches to huge crowds, much as Wesley was to do in 18th Century England. Preaching by university trained clergy was available in the larger churches. Luther is the type of this sort of priest.

The point is that an article about reform in Islam was also a Catholic screed against Protestants. Really a cheap shot.

32 posted on 09/02/2006 11:10:57 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

The Reformers claimed to be returning the Church to her original purity. What did it accomplish? Religious warfare on a horrific scale, and persecution on both sides which discredited Christianity in the eyes of so many of the educated that they turned to a substitute religion called the Enlightenment. Lewis Mumford called it a modern form of the worship of Apollo.


33 posted on 09/02/2006 11:58:43 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: vladimir998

I'd heard once that despite all the communist rhetoric the workers had it damn better pre-communism than they did post-communism... Never seen a source on it.


34 posted on 09/03/2006 4:48:32 AM PDT by kawaii
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To: johnny7

Islam is involved in a war of extermination against the West while the West is involved in massive social work against the Mohammedans.


35 posted on 09/03/2006 5:57:49 AM PDT by ThanhPhero (di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

"I was making a generalization about the Middle Ages."

And how successful do generalizations usually turn out to be? If it was a generalization then why did you time stamp it with; "At the time of the Reformation"? You're changing your story AGAIN.

"It is a very long period, roughly 450-1500 AD. The vast majority of priests in that period were poor and uneducated."

Yes, but you were talking about "At the time of the Reformation". Make up your mind. What period are you talking about? Why do you keep changing your story?

"The Gregorian reforms did bring some some changes. There several reform movements throughout that 1000 year period we call the Middle Ages. If they had been more successful, a Catholic like Martin Luther wouldn't have started his reform movement."

Incorrect. Luther's problem was heresy and pride, not a lack of reform. Luther was a product of a reform movement IN THE MIDDLE AGES. He was born in 1483 after all. He attended a medieval institution -- A UNIVERSITY. He went through a scholastic education program. No, Luther's problem was not society or the church, but his own overweaning pride and heresy.

"Again, that is a generality. It describes the general situation."

I asked for evidence. If it is a generality then it should be all the easier to prove, correct? So can you?

"Not at all. The vast majority of priests were poor and uneducated. That is a generality."

"At the time of the Reformation"? Where is your evidence of this? You keep changing your story. Where is your evidence for ANY OF THIS?

"You could find a priest who wasn't poor, for example a bishop, but exceptions do not disprove a generality. The vast majority of priests were poor."

"At the time of the Reformation"? Where is your evidence?

"Again, I'm not making an ALL statemen."

You most certainly were, and it was placed "At the time of the Reformation".

"I am making a generality that describes the usual situation. Only a wealthy vassal with land could afford to raise horses and train to be a knight (calvary man)."

You are missing the point: 1) Not all knights were of noble birth, 2) knechts in Germany were poor knights, but they possessed their low ranking noble status. Your answer is dancing around everywhere. When will you provide evidence for your assertions?

"He would have had serfs working the land, or vassals below him in charge of the land. As for bishops, that job went to the sons of aristocrats, that is to say landed vassals as well, because a great deal of land and money came with the office. You can drag up all the exceptions you want. An exception doesn't disprove a generality."

An exception certainly disproves the certainity of relying on generalizations. Rather than make generalize, wouldn't be better for your case to PROVE SOMETHING?

"That's now what I said. I said in effect that I thought you were bringing modern suppositions to your reading of the history of the Middle Ages. That is what projection means in the context I used it."

You just repeated essentially what I said. In post #20, you wrote: “You are projecting the Counter Reformation onto the Middle Ages.” I pointed out in #21, "No, I am not. I know the difference. Every example or fact I cited IS FROM BEFORE THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION. Get a clue. If you can’t tell the difference between generally before 1500 and well after the mid-century then you have a serious problem." In post #25, I wrote: "By the way, since you falsely accuse me of putting the “counter Reformation” into the Middle Ages..."

Now, how is your comment in post #20 different from my comment in post #25? The two comments are the same. You said "projected" and I wrote, "putting". Clearly the two comments are the same. I really wish you would stop changing your story. I don't know who you are trying to kid with this display of "generalizations" and constantly changing your story. It isn't going to work if your purpose is to get away from the fact that you made a claim about:

"At the time of the Reformation"

Either stand up and defend your words or admit you were wrong, but stop this constant changing of your story.


36 posted on 09/03/2006 6:06:33 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: kawaii

In terms of time off I know I have read that workers were better off BEFORE the communist take over. I think the same is true BEFORE the Reformation. The "reformers" simply destroyed much of medieval work culture in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The guilds lost their religious functions and then lost their point for being in general. That meant there was no longstanding organization to protect craftsmen. Holidays disappeared. Christmas became a workday in mid-seventeenth century England.

There is a book that goes into great detail on some of the economic ravages of the "Reformation" on the lower classes by William Cobbett, a Protestant writing in the early nineteenth century, called History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland. You can get a used copy through Amazon.com for under $14. New copies are about $22. The book is a real eye-opener.


37 posted on 09/03/2006 6:16:54 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: stripes1776

"The point is that an article about reform in Islam was also a Catholic screed against Protestants. Really a cheap shot."

War, famine, genocide, heresy, agnosticism, atheism, passivity, rabid capitalism, communism, socialism, indifferentism, modernism, liberalism, totalitarianism....

Those are the fruits - often competing fruits - of the Protestant Revolution. I think that Revolution deserves a shot, even a cheap one, now and then.


38 posted on 09/03/2006 6:20:55 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
War, famine, genocide, heresy, agnosticism, atheism, passivity, rabid capitalism, communism, socialism, indifferentism, modernism, liberalism, totalitarianism.... Those are the fruits - often competing fruits - of the Protestant Revolution. I think that Revolution deserves a shot, even a cheap one, now and then.

Bosh.

39 posted on 09/03/2006 12:04:42 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: RobbyS
The Reformers claimed to be returning the Church to her original purity. What did it accomplish? Religious warfare on a horrific scale, and persecution on both sides which discredited Christianity in the eyes of so many of the educated that they turned to a substitute religion called the Enlightenment. Lewis Mumford called it a modern form of the worship of Apollo.

Great revolutions are rarely bloodless, but those wars resulted in freedom of religion. As for the Enlightenment, we all benefit from the ideas of the period. One of those was the scientific method that gives us things like computers and the Internet. I am not giving up any of that, so I appreciate many ideas of that period, although not uncritically.

I am not a Catholic apologeticist, so we will not agree about the meaning of specific periods or events. But the ideas forged in violence during the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment made it possible for Protestants to found the United States. And it is why those Protestants allowed millions of Catholics to immigrate here. And I think this is an idea few Catholics appreciate. Each to his taste.

40 posted on 09/03/2006 12:27:47 PM PDT by stripes1776
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