Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
Tribulation Forces ^ | Thomas Ice

Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
by Thomas Ice


I suspect that most of you have been at a theological crossroad at least once in your Christian life. I have stood at several over the years. Let me tell you about one such instance, since it is one that many have faced down through church history. It involves the question of "What do you do with a future national Israel in the Bible?" The decision one makes about this question will largely determine your view of Bible prophecy, thus greatly impacting your view of the Bible itself and where history is headed.

A Personal Crossroad

Back in the early '80s I lived in Oklahoma and was in my first pastorate after getting out of Dallas Seminary in 1980. I had been attracted for about a decade to the writings of those known as Christian Reconstructionists. Most reconstructionists are preterist postmillennial1 in their view of Bible prophecy. Up to this point in my life I considered myself a reconstructionist who was not postmillennial, but dispensational premillennial. Through a series of events, I came to a point in my thinking where I believed that I had to consider whether postmillennialism was biblical. I recall having come to the point in my mind where I actually wanted to switch to postmillennialism and had thought about what that would mean for me in the ministry. I remember thinking that I was willing to make whatever changes would be necessary if I concluded that the Bible taught postmillennialism.

I went on a trip to Tyler, Texas (at the time a reconstructionist stronghold) and visited with Gary North and his pastor Ray Sutton. I spent most of my time talking with Ray Sutton, a Dallas graduate who had made the journey from dispensationalism to postmillennialism. As I got in my car to drive the 100 miles to Dallas where I would stay that night, I expected to make the shift to postmillennialism. In fact, I spent the night in the home of my current co-author, Tim Demy, who told me later that he said to his wife after talking with me, "Well Lynn, looks like we've lost Tommy to postmillennialism."

The next morning as I drove from Dallas to Oklahoma, my mind was active with a debate between the two positions. About two-thirds of the way home, I concluded that to make the shift to postmillennialism I would have to spiritualize many of the passages referring to a future for national Israel and replace them with the church. At that moment of realization, which has been strengthened since through many hours of in-depth Bible study, I lost any attraction to postmillennialism.

Since that time, more than fifteen years ago, further Bible study has continued to strengthen my belief that God has a future plan for national Israel. It was the Bible's clear teaching about a future for national Israel that kept me a dispensationalist. What the Bible teaches about national Israel's future has been a central issue impacting the action of Christians on many important issues. It is hard to think of a more important issue that has exerted a greater practical impact upon Christendom than the Church's treatment of unbelieving Jews during her 2,000 year history. As we will see, treatment of the Jews by Christendom usually revolves around one's understanding of Israel's future national role in God's plan.

Chrisendom's Anti-Semitism

Over the years I have been asked many times, "How can a genuine, born-again Christian be anti-Semitic?" Most American evangelical Christians today have a high view of Jews and the modern state of Israel and do not realize that this is a more recent development because of the positive influence of the dispensational view that national Israel has a future in the plan of God. Actually, for the last 2,000 years, Chrisendom has been responsible for much of the world's anti-Semitism. What has been the reason within Chrisendom that would allow anti-Semitism to develop and prosper? Replacement theology has been recognized at the culprit.

What is replacement theology? Replacement theology is the view that the Church has permanently replaced Israel as the instrument through which God works and that national Israel does not have a future in the plan of God. Some replacement theologians may believe that individual Jews will be converted and enter into the church (something that we all believe), but they do not believe that God will literally fulfill the dozens of Old Testament promises to a converted national Israel in the future. For example, reconstructionist David Chilton says that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom."2 Chilton says again, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation."3 Reconstructionist patriarch, R. J. Rushdoony uses the strongest language when he declares,

The fall of Jerusalem, and the public rejection of physical Israel as the chosen people of God, meant also the deliverance of the true people of God, the church of Christ, the elect, out of the bondage to Israel and Jerusalem, . . .4

A further heresy clouds premillennial interpretations of Scripture--their exaltation of racism into a divine principle. Every attempt to bring the Jew back into prophecy as a Jew is to give race and works (for racial descent is a human work) a priority over grace and Christ's work and is nothing more or less than paganism. . . . There can be no compromise with this vicious heresy.5

The Road to Holocaust

Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish. This was a point made by Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, to which reconstructionists cried foul. A book was written to rebut Lindsey by Jewish reconstructionist Steve Schlissel. Strangely, Schlissel's book (Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews) ended up supporting Lindsey's thesis that replacement theology produced anti-Semitism in the past and could in the future. Schlissel seems to share Lindsey's basic view on the rise and development of anti-Semitism within the history of the church. After giving his readers an overview of the history of anti-Semitism through Origen, Augustine, Chrysostom, Ambrose, and Jerome, Schlissel then quotes approvingly Raul Hilberg's famous quote included in Lindsey's Holocaust.

Viewing the plight of the Jews in Christian lands from the fourth century to the recent holocaust, one Jew observed, "First we were told 'You're not good enough to live among us as Jews.' Then we were told, 'You're not good enough to live among us.' Finally we were told, 'You're not good enough to live.'"6

Schlissel then comments approvingly upon Hilberg's statement,

This devastatingly accurate historical analysis was the fruit of an error, a building of prejudice and hate erected upon a false theological foundation. The blindness of the church regarding the place of the Jew in redemptive history is, I believe, directly responsible for the wicked sins and attitudes described above. What the church believes about the Jews has always made a difference. But the church has not always believed a lie.7

The truth, noted by Schlissel, is what his other reconstructionist brethren deny. What Schlissel has called a lie is the replacement theology that his preterist reconstructionist brethren advocate. Their form of replacement theology is the problem. Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

Yet Schlissel is concerned that his Reformed brethren are abandoning this future national hope for Israel as they currently reassert a strong view of replacement theology.

Whatever views were maintained as to Israel's political restoration, their spiritual future was simply a given in Reformed circles. Ironically, this sure and certain hope is not a truth kept burning brightly in many Christian Reformed Churches today, . . . In fact, their future conversion aside, the Jews' very existence is rarely referred to today, and even then it is not with much grace or balance.9

This extract establishes that the "spiritualized" notion of "Israel" in Rom 11:25, 26, was known to and rejected by the body of Dutch expositors. . . .

Since the turn of the century, most modern Dutch Reformed, following Kuyper and Bavinck, reject this historic position.10

Reconstructionist Schlissel seems to think that part of the reason why many of his Reformed brethren are returning to replacement theology is due to their reaction to the strong emphasis of a future for Israel as a nation found within dispensational premillennialism. Yet, dispensational premillennialism developed within the Reformed tradition as many began to consistently take all the Old Testament promises that were yet fulfilled for Israel as still valid for a future Jewish nation. Schlissel complains:

just a century ago all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation. How they have come, to a frightening extent, to depart from their historic positions regarding the certainty of Israel's future conversion is not our subject here. . . . the hope of the future conversion of the Jews became closely linked, at the turn of the century and beyond, with Premillennial Dispensationalism, an eschatological heresy. This, necessarily, one might say, soon became bound up and confused with Zionism. Christians waxed loud about the return of the Jews to Israel being a portent that the Second Coming is high. It thus seemed impossible, for many, to distinguish between the spiritual hope of Israel and their political "hope." Many Reformed, therefore, abandoned both.11

Historical Development

As it should be, the nature of Israel's future became the watershed issue in biblical interpretation which caused a polarization of positions that we find today. As Schlissel noted, "all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation." Today most Reformed interpreters do not hold such a view. Why? Early in the systemization of any theological position the issues are undeveloped and less clear than later when the consistency of various positions are worked out. Thus it is natural for the mature understanding of any theological issue to lead to polarization of viewpoints as a result of interaction and debate between positions. The earlier Reformed position to which Schlissel refers included a blend of some Old Testament passages that were taken literally (i.e., those teaching a future conversion of Israel as a nation) and some that were not (i.e., details of Israel's place of dominance during a future period of history). On the one hand, as time passed, those who stressed a literal understanding of Israel from the Old Testament became much more consistent in applying such an approach to all passages relating to Israel's destiny. On the other hand, those who thought literalism was taken too far retreated from whatever degree of literalness they did have and argued that the church fulfills Israel's promises, thus there was no need for a national Israel in the future. Further, non-literal interpretation was viewed as the tool with which liberals denied the essentials of the faith. Thus, by World War II dispensationalism had come to virtually dominate evangelicals who saw literal interpretation of the Bible as a primary support for orthodoxy.

After World War II many of the battles between fundamentalism and liberalism began to wane. Such an environment allowed for less stigma attached to non literal interpretation within conservative circles. Thus, by the '70s, not having learned the lessons of history, we began to see the revival of many prophetic views that were returning to blends of literal and spiritual interpretation. As conservative postmillennialism has risen from near extinction in recent years, it did not return to the mixed hermeneutics of 100 years ago, which Schlissel longs for, but instead, it has been wedded with preterism in hopes that it can combat the logic of dispensational futurism. Schlissel's Reformed brethren do not appear to be concerned that, in preterism, they have revived a brand of eschatology which includes one of the most hard-core forms of replacement theology. And they do not appear convinced or concerned that replacement theology has a history of producing theological anti-Semitism when mixed with the right social and political conditions. In fact, Schlissel himself preached a sermon a few years ago in which he identified James Jordan, a Reformed preterist, as advancing an anti-Semitic view of Bible prophecy.12

Conclusion

What one believes about the future of Israel is of utmost importance to one's understanding of the Bible. I believe, without a shadow of doubt, that Old Testament promises made to national Israel will literally be fulfilled in the future. This means the Bible teaches that God will return the Jews to their land before the tribulation begins (Isa. 11:11-12:6; Ezek. 20:33-44; 22:17-22; Zeph. 2:1-3). This has been accomplished and the stage is set as a result of the current existence of the modern state of Israel. The Bible also indicates that before Israel enters into her time of national blessing she must first pass through the fire of the tribulation (Deut. 4:30; Jer. 30:5-9; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:14-18). Even though the horrors of the Holocaust under Hitler were of an unimaginable magnitude, the Bible teaches that a time of even greater trial awaits Israel during the tribulation. Anti-Semitism will reach new heights, this time global in scope, in which two-thirds of world Jewry will be killed (Zech. 13:7-9; Rev. 12). Through this time God will protect His remnant so that before His second advent "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:36). In fact, the second coming will include the purpose of God's physical rescue of Israel from world persecution during Armageddon (Dan. 12:1; Zech. 12-14; Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21).

If national Israel is a historical "has been," then all of this is obviously wrong. However, the Bible says she has a future and world events will revolve around that tiny nation at the center of the earth. The world's focus already is upon Israel. God has preserved His people for a reason and it is not all bad. In spite of the fact that history is progressing along the lines of God's ordained pattern for Israel, we see the revival of replacement theology within conservative circles that will no doubt be used in the future to fuel the fires of anti-Semitism, as it has in the past. Your view of the future of national Israel is not just an academic exercise. I beg everyone influenced by this article to cast your allegiance with the literal Word of God lest we be found fighting against God and His Sovereign plan. W

Endnotes

1 For a definition of terms and labels used in this article consult the Glossary in Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, editors, When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), pp. 473-4.

2 David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985), p. 224. 3 Ibid.

4 Rousas John Rushdoony, Thy Kingdom Come: Studies in Daniel and Revelation (Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, 1970), p. 82.

5 Ibid., p. 134.

6 Steve Schlissel & David Brown, Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews (Edmonton, Canada: Still Waters Revival Books, 1990), p. 47. For a survey of the history of anti-Semitism in the Church see David Rausch, Building Bridges: Understanding Jews and Judaism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988), pp. 87-171. 7Ibid., pp. 47-48. 8Ibid., p. 59. 9Ibid., p. 42. 10Ibid., pp. 49-50. 11Ibid., pp. 39-40.

12 Steve Schlissel, The Jews/Jordan & Jerusalem, an audio tape obtained from Still Waters Revival Books, 4710 - 37A Ave., Edmonton, AB T6L 3T5, CANADA.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; church; dispensationalism; eschatology; israel; postmillennialism; premillennialism; preterism; replacement
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 601-620621-640641-660 ... 721-740 next last
Comment #621 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins
I understand that millions are coming to Christ in the 3rd world nations.

Wonderful! And may His Name be glorified to the ends of the earth in ever-greater measure!

Question: How does the ongoing success of Christian evangelism pave the way for the global triumph of evil? There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in there somewhere!

622 posted on 09/06/2006 9:15:51 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 619 | View Replies]

To: All

KNOCK OFF THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!


623 posted on 09/06/2006 9:20:46 AM PDT by Lead Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 589 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley

You need to read the article and notice who posted it.


624 posted on 09/06/2006 9:26:15 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 620 | View Replies]

To: xzins; Marysecretary; P-Marlowe; topcat54; Alamo-Girl; blue-duncan; Corin Stormhands
I would also add that the rigid application of a "40 year generation" that some use in connection with Mat. 24:34 is faulty anyway. Just because it took 40 years (38, really) for a generation of Israelites to pass away in harsh desert conditions doesn't mean that that number applies in all circumstances at all times. "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by strength they are fourscore years . . ." (Psa. 90:10).

Assuming that "this generation" is meant to be marked from the time Israel was founded again as an independant nation or from the retaking of Jerusalem (and that's a major assumption), God could easily wait the better part of a century from that point (another 40-60 years from the present day) before the generation that witnessed the event "passed away."

Of course, it could also be that Yeshua was speaking of the generation that saw "all these things" described through the chapter, or that He was using genea (or whatever Hebrew word Mattityahu [Matthew] was translating) to refer to the Jewish people as a whole. In either case, trying to calculate the time of the end from this statement would be incorrect.

625 posted on 09/06/2006 9:36:08 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 619 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
The Lord blesses those who bless Israel. Expect a blessing.

Which Israel? The self-avowed enemies of Jesus Christ, or the Israel that loves, honors, and serves the Lord Jesus Christ?


How about the Isreal which existed at the time of God's statement, ... a blundering, inconsistent, murmuring Israel.

Though they be enemies of the Gospel, are they not yet beloved for their fathers' sakes ?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

626 posted on 09/06/2006 9:36:39 AM PDT by Quester
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 620 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
"LAST DAYS MADNESS" by Gary DeMar

A wonderful book. Bought it. Read it. Believe it.

Christ reigns today in heaven. Everything else is "just so much fluuuff" (Seinfeld.)

627 posted on 09/06/2006 9:38:51 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 604 | View Replies]

To: Quester

Thanks for the Scriptures. I hope Christians can undertand the "nuance" of the Lord. ;-)

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

Love them, of course.


628 posted on 09/06/2006 9:41:16 AM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 626 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley; Marysecretary
2 Thessalonians 2:2....be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Mr 16:15 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mt 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

As I see it, there is a proclamation with results that takes in the entire world (Jesus.) Jesus will not return until after the apostasy, the great falling away. (Paul)

Paul in verse 7 of 2 Thess 2 says that God will lift His hand of influence at this time of great falling away, and that will provide the opportunity for the man of sin to work his evil.

BTW, do you know what #621 was that got removed with a warning from the mod?

629 posted on 09/06/2006 9:46:08 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 622 | View Replies]

To: Buggman

It seems clear to me from the lucan context that he was speaking of the generation that witnessed those things he was referring to at that point in His narration.


630 posted on 09/06/2006 9:48:49 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 625 | View Replies]

To: xzins
BTW, do you know what #621 was that got removed with a warning from the mod?

There is officially zero tolerance on this thread for making the discussion personal (warning at post 590.)

Non-compliant posts will be pulled, defiant posters are on thin ice and the thread is at risk of being locked if it becomes toxic again.

631 posted on 09/06/2006 9:54:36 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 629 | View Replies]

To: xzins

Actually, it's the Lukan context which convinces me that either Yeshua wasn't. or that He was engaging in a play-on-words. As you've pointed out, Luke 21 distinctly speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD which began "the times of the Gentiles." It then leaps forward to the Second Coming. It would be impossible for the same generation to witness both before passing away.


632 posted on 09/06/2006 9:55:03 AM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 630 | View Replies]

To: xzins; Marysecretary; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; TomSmedley
Peter said, when he noticed scoffers who were impatient and unbelieving toward the Lord's Return, ...

Let's not hide behind a verse. The "scoffers", as you call them, are laughing at the "chicken little" approach of some modern dispensationalists who read the "times and seasons" according to an artifical literalism. They run around with their copy of the Jerusalem Post checking the birth certificate of every "Cohen" and "Levi", or looking for red heifers and granite blocks on the way to the middle east for the futurist rebuilt temple.

We know the Lord will return, "with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God," and we know it will happpen, "at an hour you do not expect." We know that He will return "in like manner" as He went into heaven so that "every eye will see Him". There's nothing magic in that.

What is magic is the attempt by some to create an eschatological jig saw puzzle out of all their supposed "signs" that these things are about to take place, and adding a splash of "date suggesting" for good measure to keep the uninformed interested.

So, we are not really the "scoffers" of whom Peter spoke. We are more like the mocking Elijah when he confronted the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel with their false theology.

And dispensationalism is the real "troubler of Israel." As Arthur Pink put it:

But there is further reason, and a pressing one today, why we should write upon our present subject, and that is to expose the modern and pernicious error of Dispensationalism. This is a device of the Enemy, designed to rob the children of no small part of that bread which their heavenly Father has provided for their souls; a device wherein the wily serpent appears as an angel of light, feigning to "make the Bible a new book" by simplifying much in it which perplexes the spiritually unlearned. It is sad to see how widely successful the devil has been by means of this subtle innovation. (A Study of Dispensationalism)

"Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that You are the Lord God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again."

People need to get their eyes off of earthly Israel and back on to Jesus, the real Israel of God, the Root and the Offspring of David.

633 posted on 09/06/2006 10:04:39 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 619 | View Replies]

To: xzins
BTW, do you know what #621 was that got removed with a warning from the mod?

Thanks for the scripture, cordially presented. Ahhh ... no, I'm blissfully ignorant of #621, and probably better off for not knowing! Grace and peace upon your house, brother.

634 posted on 09/06/2006 10:13:55 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 629 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; TomSmedley
designed to rob the children of no small part of that bread which their heavenly Father has provided for their souls

Amen! I'm still at a loss as to how Christians can understand salvation through any other name than Jesus Christ.

"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:4-6

Do some people believe that some men are justified in ignoring the Gospel? That some men have no access to God's word? That some men are righteous of their own accord, and not by Christ within them?

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." -- Romans 1:16-21


635 posted on 09/06/2006 10:25:14 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 633 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg
I'm still at a loss as to how Christians can understand salvation through any other name than Jesus Christ.

They watch too much Oprah.

636 posted on 09/06/2006 10:34:49 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (the vine brought forth little minnows and everything went swimmingly)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 635 | View Replies]

To: Buggman

I'm speaking of his use of the entire future section as if He were present at the time.


637 posted on 09/06/2006 10:43:50 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 632 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings

LOL. Something like that. 8~)


638 posted on 09/06/2006 10:55:56 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 636 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg

I am reading thru Dr. Pink's commentary. I've heard of Christian pastors who toss out the OT as irrelevant, and preach only from the New. The problem is probably that they can't understand it and don't try to. This would leave them hog-tied and shackled but then if you give them scripture sliced and diced and tied with a bow, they can deal with it. Just my opinion.


639 posted on 09/06/2006 11:02:30 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (the vine brought forth little minnows and everything went swimmingly)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 633 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; TomSmedley
Here's an interesting perspective on things from Reformed minister Grover Gunn, who was trained at Dallas Seminary:
Sixth, dispensationalism appeals to some philosophical biases. As we have noted, dispensationalism is pessimistic, and pessimism conforms to the existential spirit of our age. Also, there are some striking parallels between empirical philosophy and dispensationalism. They both prefer literal, precise language over figurative poetic expression. They both emphasize the diversity of truth, seeing each truth as a self-sufficient, encapsulated entity to the point of neglecting the organic unity of truth. British empiricism compared truths to billiard balls and rejected the concept that truths are related organically like a blossom is related to fruit. Similarly, dispensationalists reject the idea that the Old and New Testaments are related like a bud is related to a blossom. British empiricists also emphasized individual autonomous freedom, and a similar emphasis can be seen in the teaching of those dispensationalists who say that the Christian today is not under law in any sense. Dispensationalism is individualistic in its pessimistic attitude toward the organized church and in its relegation of kingdom truths, with their social implications, to a future age.

George M. Marsden has pointed out that dispensationalism developed in the nineteenth century when the empiricism of Francis Bacon was philosophically popular in America. Mr. Marsden made the following observations:

To whatever degree dispensationalists consciously considered themselves Baconians (it is rare to find reflections on philosophical first principles), this closely describes the assumptions of virtually all of them. They were absolutely convinced that all they were doing was taking the hard facts of Scripture, carefully arranging and classifying them, and thus discovering the clear patterns which Scripture revealed.[1]

The role of the interpreter, according to the same Baconian assumptions, was not to impose hypotheses or theories, but to reach conclusions on the basis of careful classification and generalization alone. This disposition to divide and classify everything is one of the most striking and characteristic traits of dispensationalism.[2]

Dispensationalist leaders regarded these methods of dividing and classifying as the only scientific ones. Scofield, for example, contrasted his work to previous "unscientific systems." Similarly, Reuben Torrey regarded ideas basically as things to be sorted out and arranged. One of his major works, What the Bible Teaches (1898), is an incredibly dry five-hundred-page compilation of thousands of Biblical "propositions" supported by proof texts. The closest analogy would be to an encyclopedia or dictionary. Torrey explicitly defended this utter lack of style or elegance. "Beauty and impressiveness," he said in the preface, "must always yield to precision and clearness." As usual, his model was the scientist. Torrey depicted his work as "simply an attempt at a careful unbiased, systematic, thorough-going, inductive study and statement of Bible truth. ... The methods of modern science are applied to Bible study -- thorough analysis followed by careful synthesis."

Induction had to start with the hard facts, and dispensationalists insisted that the only proper way to interpret Scripture was in "the literal sense," unless the text or the context absolutely demanded otherwise.[3]

The parallels between dispensational and empirical thought are striking.

[1] George M. Marsden, Fundamentalism and American Culture: The Shaping of Twentieth-Century Evangelicalism: 1870-1925 (New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1980), page 56.
[2] Ibid., page 59.
[3] Ibid., page 60.

Dispensationalism: Dealing with It in the Real World

Marsden's analysis helps to explain why many dispensationalists tend to read the Bible as if they were reading a newspaper or college textbook. It also explains why they tend to look skeptically at any interpretation that does not fit into a set of nice categories of the literalist's making.

Progressive dispensationalists are moving beyond these artificial categories and exploring more the organic nature of the Scripture, esp. wrt the unfolding of the salvation narrative in the person of Jesus Christ and the fundamental unity of the people of God in all generations.

640 posted on 09/06/2006 12:15:22 PM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 639 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 601-620621-640641-660 ... 721-740 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson