Posted on 08/16/2006 5:31:28 PM PDT by Coleus
Incorrect. Our Lord can save whomever He wants by whatever means He wants. We here on Earth have no way of knowing who is and is not going to Heaven after death. There are probably going to be a lot of people in Heaven who through no fault of their own have never received Communion at a mass of the Catholic Church. (We know for certain of four: Moses, Elijah, the Repentant Thief aka St. Dismas, and the patriarch Enoch.) Likewise, there are probably going to be quite a few regular mass attendees and regular churchgoers who really never loved Jesus at all and who end up in the Hot Place. May God have mercy on us all!
The point of what we are told about salvation is that all who ARE saved are saved through the Blood of Christ. How exactly each individual person is saved through the Blood of Christ is not our affair; "Strive to Enter". We Christians are not to waste time judging who is and is not saved; nor are we to receive Communion solely out of the fear of Hell. Instead, we are to spread the Gospel to all men and to receive the Sacraments out of love for the Lord. Those who deign to judge the eternal destiny of their fellowmen will find themselves getting judged on the Last Day; those who receive Communion purely on a "fire insurance" basis are probably doing it for the wrong reasons.
Ah, and John the Baptist as well.
Yeah, I didn't know whether or not to include Lazarus the Beggar -- was he a fictional character or a real guy? Either way, old Abraham's definitely In.
And how could I leave out John the Baptist. He proves that some Baptists DO go to Heaven!
(That was meant as a joke.)
Thanks for the correction.
It's a big thing there now. The very first link is to a discussion of dance in ancient India.
You are welcome to educate yourself in what I already know ~ to wit, Indian people dance a lot.
The alternative was, of course, to burn them all at the stake. No doubt the hierarchy lost its nerve eh!
One of the more ancient Jewish Christian groups have what is called the "Margam Kali" (Dance of the way of Jesus). Try http://www.ghg.net/knanaya/comunity/kna-hist.htm
There's a Papal Decree concerning some of these people at: http://www.ghg.net/knanaya/kottayam/kottayam.htm#TPD
Concerning the use of dance by Christians in India, check this neat little polemic: http://www.drbarboza.com/divineorigin.htm
As I said right at the beginning some of this involves church politics, not religion. I am really not on top of church politics although I suspect (and that's only suspect) that the Papal decree I referenced requires RCs to stand aside and not criticise Indian Christians when it comes to dance. Maybe someone who can figure out how that Papal decree relates to the other references in the main body of the story at the top of this thread can provide some guidance.
Instead of replying with my own words to your query, I reply with the words of the Catechism, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 3, Sub 3, Heading 5, 846-848:
Outside the Church there is no salvation[Source]How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Q. I'll take it, then, that you don't take John 6:53-56 literally, then
A. 1. Understood literally, John 6:53-56 says that those who have not physically received the Eucharist have no chance of living in the Kingdom of Heaven.
2. But we know from other passages of Scripture that Heaven is inhabited (among others) by Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, St. Dismas, Enoch, and others who died prior to the institution of the Sacrament.
3. Therefore, a literal understanding of John 6:53-56 is not 100% correct.
My own personal belief (and keep in mind that I am the layest of laymen) is that those who believe that Jesus is God and who know that the Eucharist gives life and who yet refuse it are guilty of refusing salvation.
As for those of other religions: we know that Jesus burst the gates of Hell and proclaimed the Gospel to the dead. Since all men die, it therefore follows that all men will at some point hear the Gospel and be presented with the Reality of Jesus' Passion and Resurrection for the atonement of sin. At that point, they will choose either to accept Him or reject Him. It may be that as we die, in our last, fleeting moments of consciousness, Christ appears to us and makes plain His love for us, offering Himself as our saving Sacrifice. At that instant, if we partake of His Flesh and Blood, we will live.
We don't know how Christ offers his Flesh and Blood to those who did not have the chance to commune with Him due to distance in space and time; we only know that He does offer it to all men oof all times. Being God, He is perfect; being perfect, He is perfectly just. Being perfectly just, it seems logical to assume that God is not going to bar from Heaven those who through no fault of their own (ignorance, other religious training, sincere agnosticism, etc.) have failed to see Who Jesus is and What He offers us.
We can't know who is going to Heaven. We can know that every one of us who makes it to Heaven will make it there by following the lead of Our Lady, who, when presented by God with the choice of accepting Jesus or rejecting Him, replied "Let it be done unto me according to Your will".
Given that the article is primarily about Toronto, I can understand your confusion.
I wish I had time to read the article carefully and comment carefully. In a couple of weeks I'll have time, and hope to post my own article which will cover some of these points.
There is are lot of serious and grave misunderstanding about what the Vedic religion is - by self-described Hindus as well as others.
I just do not have the time at this moment, but I will save this article and use some of the points for my article.
I stay off most non-Catholic threads simply because the details being discussed do not interest me. Do Catholics posters tend to pile on, Alex?
I will read threads that deal with the breakdown in certain denominations, but I read with a certain sorrow. While I do not agree with the faith choices of my 'non-Cath Christian' brothers and sisters, I am heartbroken when I see their churches / denominations being ripped apart by people for political reasons. It's hard enough to see true religious disagreements causing real-life fighting and pain, but reading about how people are taking over for their own political views and NOT caring about spreading the Good News, well, it wounds us all.
There's a certain exactness concerning foreign customs and cultures that Americans demand that's sorely missing in virtually everything that is delivered through the "English filter" ~ and Canada is worse than UK about that.
Our catechism, which is really the final word, says that they probably can (as best as we can determine God's decisions). If you believe the above, then I invite you to investigate what we really believe.
" There are only a handful of Americans who hate the Catholic Church, though there are millions who hate what they THINK the Church is." Archbishop Fulton Sheen
BTW, all Hindus are, as it were, "self described". The number of discrete denominations is pretty nearly equal to the number of adult males in India (exclusive of Moslems).
"There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church." Archbishop Fulton Sheen
We get beat on all the time, and it's amazing to me.
My girls were invited to VBS at a Baptist church tonight. We had to write on the registration card what our church was. No one minded at all the we were Catholic. They welcomed us with open arms.
I guess I'll stick with Baptists and forget about the FReepers who come to just slam us.
Put a "Pope", "Rosary", or "Mary" thread up and watch how soon they start sticking it to us.
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