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Hindu “Mass” Sparks Violent Altercation in Toronto Churchyard
Catholic Family News ^ | Cornelia R. Ferreira

Posted on 08/16/2006 5:31:28 PM PDT by Coleus

Hindu “Mass” Sparks Violent Altercation in Toronto Churchyard

by Cornelia R. Ferreira 

George’s eyes were glazing over. The “Indian Rite of Mass” was in full swing at St. Ann’s Church in Toronto on Sunday, July 2, 2006, and he felt he was being hypnotized by the endless monotonous chants and the flowing hand movements of the Indian dancing girls. Feeling nauseated, he left the front of the church and walked to the back to clear his mind. Along the way he noticed people frozen in the pews as though in a trance.

Scenes from the Hindu "Mass"

Above: Triple Arati

Underneath: The "Our Father"

 

George and some friends had learnt of this event at St. Ann’s through flyers that announced a “Roman Rite Liturgy of the Eucharist with religious cultural adaptations of India, approved by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India”. The Presider would be a certain Father Thomas D’Sa, Director of the National Biblical Catechetical Liturgical Centre (NBCLC) of the Indian Bishops’ Conference in Bangalore, India. The flyer pictured a “Jesus” dressed like a Hinduized Catholic priest, squatting in front of a large plate on which rested a huge “host” the size of an Indian unleavened bread called chappati.

George, unaware that the NBCLC was actually founded by the Indian bishops forty years ago in order to Hinduize the Church in India,[1] was scandalized by the idea of pagan rituals at a Catholic Mass. Complying with his Confirmation grace to defend the Faith, he and his friends went to St. Ann’s to educate and warn attendees that the service advertised in the flyer as the “Indian Order of Eucharistic Celebration” would be Hindu, not Indian. They intended to peacefully demonstrate be-forehand with placards proclaiming sentiments such as “Hinduism is not part of Catholicism,” and “Inculturation is the work of the devil”. They also wished to distribute copies of this writer’s article on the Hindu rituals used during Mother Teresa’s beatification Mass,[2] telling people to read it to understand what they would encounter. They did not have the opportunity, however, to carry out their plan until after the service, with unexpected results. But more on that later.

It should be noted that the event was advertised on the Archdiocese of Toronto website although there is no “Indian Rite” or “Ordo” that has official Vatican approval. Also, there is no exclusively “Indian” religion or culture, as many religions co-exist in that country. The “Mass” concocted in 1969 by the Indian bishops has always been a Hindu-Catholic syncretic hybrid, the version at St. Ann’s being an obvious adaptation for Western audiences.[3] As for dance during Mass, which has always been forbidden, even the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, in 1975, said dance “desacralizes” the liturgy, “introducing an atmosphere of profanity”.[4]

The Voice of Dance

The service was a consciousness-raising workshop, with Fr. D’Sa explaining the significance of each dance and ritual. Though cloaked in Catholic terminology, the explanations made it clear that he would be conducting Hindu worship or puja, with the barest essentials of the Mass grafted onto it. (Indeed, as it turned out, missing would be the Creed, Lamb of God and Final Blessing.) In any case, Hinduized Catholics do not use the words “Lord,” “Jesus,” or “God” in the Catholic sense. Hinduized priests admit that people at a puja-Mass “are not praying to some Christian Deity, but to the Deity who is understood and experienced in different ways in different religious cultures and traditions,”[5] i.e., they pray to the pantheistic, universal, impersonal Absolute, the Hindu god.  It was announced that Fr. D’Sa and his dance troupe were on a workshop tour. They had been in Europe and their next stop was the University of Winnipeg (“Celebrating Spirituality and Dance,” as advertised on Winnipeg’s Archdiocesan website).

A little background on the troupe is in order. Named “Nrityavani,” which means “the voice of dance,” it is an official organ of the Indian Bishops’ Conference. It was devised “to inculturate Catholicism through dance”[6] — in other words, to Hinduize Catholic liturgy and belief worldwide, through its adaptations of Indian classical dance, which is an expression of Hinduism. Directed by Fr. D’Sa, Nrityavani features Catholic dancers as young as nine, and at least one dancing priest.[7]   Now, in February 2006, the occult humanitarian Art of Living Foundation, a United Nations non-governmental association, founded by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar (not the sitarist), held an interfaith Jubilee celebration. It drew 2.5 million people to the “first ever ‘spiritual Olympics’,” who meditated together as a “One-World Family”. Dignitaries included the Archbishop of Bangalore and over 1,000 spiritual leaders, as well as World Bank executives, NASA engineers, movie stars, heads of government and Nobel Laureates. Former Dutch Prime Minister Ruud Lubbers was also present; he is a partner of Mikhail Gorbachev in promoting the Earth Charter, and also Hans Küng’s associate for the anti-Christian Global Ethic. In line with Shan-kar’s philosophy, Indian President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam suggested using music “as a binding force” for the world’s religions to promote an enlightened society and world harmony. Shankar also believes that “[e]ven inside the devil there is divinity, but it is sleeping. When it wakes up, the devil simply disappears”.[8]

On April 2, 2006, the Indian bishops honored Shankar’s Jubilee with a function at the NBCLC. The Indian website daijiworld.com com-mented:[9] “As the word ‘Catholic’ stands for a universal outlook encompassing everyone, NBCLC respects every religion”. The celebration theme was “Pilgrimage towards inner harmony” and “Living with people of other faiths”. Following NBCLC Director Father D’Sa’s welcome speech and Hindu devotional songs, Nrityavani dances depicted that “Wisdom is divine and the divine gifts are to be distributed freely”.

Homage to the Gods

Let us now return to the Hindu Ordo Mass at the century-old St. Ann’s Church in Toronto. Site of a Native Peoples’ Parish for two decades, it had already been desecrated by Canadian Indian rituals. Before the Mass, Father D’Sa announced he would be explaining the dance gestures and postures as used in “the Indian culture.” He said the Entrance Procession would be preceded by an opening dance honoring the Blessed Trinity. The three barefooted Nrityavani dancing girls positioned in front of the altar were introduced respectively as representing, by their gestures, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

More Scenes from the Hindu "Mass" 

The Blessed Trinity Dance featured the chanting of the magic (occult) mantra OM as each “Person” of the Trinity came “on stage”. Hinduism teaches that we need to develop the inner consciousness of our divinity and our oneness with the Absolute. Mantra vibrations induce a trance (recall George’s unease) in which we can feel ourselves one with the Supreme Divinity. OM is the su-preme vibration as it means “I Am” (appropriating the name by which the true God revealed Himself!). It began creation and initiates awareness. For this reason, and because “Divinity alone can worship Divinity,” every puja must start with OM, to help us recognize our “I Am”-ness and oneness. Mantras and hand gestures also alleg-edly purify and divinize the body.[10]

OM also is the Hindu god Krishna, himself a reincarnation of the god Vishnu, who is the personification of the Absolute. It also has sexual and black magic meanings. Further, the trunk of the elephant-head god Ganesha or Ganapati also represents OM, so Ganesha is usually the first god worshiped in a traditional puja. In 1980, Wladislaw Cardinal Rubin, Prefect of the Congregation for Oriental Churches, forbade the use of OM because it is “an essential, integral part of Hindu worship”.[11] Since the actual sound of OM represents the Hindu Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva,[12] and since the whole ceremony was profane, we are led to believe that the Holy Trinity Dance at St. Ann’s honored the Hindu, not the Christian Trinity.   After the Blessed Trinity Dance and[13] Entrance Procession, the priests were greeted with an arati of lights, after which Father D’Sa performed the same arati towards the people.

He had earlier told them, “We shall also welcome you with an Indian gesture called arati, with flowers and with a lamp”. As a dancer demonstrated how the arati plate is waved in three circles, Father D’Sa explained that the first circle stands for God who created us and the universe, the second circle for the universe, and the third for our fellow human beings. “In this way,” he said, “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati”. This statement clearly denoted the Hindu nature of the proceedings, as Hindus believe all men are united with the universal Absolute. Hinduism’s other deities are manifestations of the divine One.   Father D’Sa was disingenuous in describing arati as a mere “welcoming gesture” instead of as the most important ritual in Hindu worship. Arati is defined as a temple ritual in which a fire or light on a plate is waved in a clockwise direction in front of a deity, an important person, or anything valuable. Light is worshiped as the Supreme Lord of inner consciousness. The clockwise direction symbolizes one’s divinity, revealed by the “flame” or light of knowledge. Fire and light themselves are worshiped. Indeed, the puja-Mass was advertised in the flyer as “Divya Yagam,” a term meaning “worship of the Light”. Arati is also done to appease the goddess Arathi and to counteract “the evil eye”. Further, the Hindu gods demand adoration with flowers, incense and light. It just so happens that the puja-Mass features a triple arati of fire, flowers and incense sticks later in the proceedings.

Father D’Sa was the main celebrant, and the pastor of St. Ann’s the concelebrant. Both priests sported a white dot between the eyebrows. There are several varieties and meanings for this dot, the first being that the wearer proclaims he is a Hindu. The location between the eyebrows is supposed to be a center of spiritual energy and a focus of meditation. The dot in that position represents the “third eye” of divine inner sight — i.e., of occult knowledge and abilities — and awareness of unity with the universe, which Hindus seek to awaken. Focusing on the god within, the dot is a symbol of the worship of the intellect.[14]   Before the washing of the hands, Father D’Sa performed a superstitious ritual, offering blue and red flowers to the “eight directions of the world”. He said the flowers symbolized those present who were from different cultures and traditions, hoping for unity. However, in the regular Hindu ritual, flowers are offered to the gods of the eight directions, honoring the eight aspects of the god Shiva. The ritual is also done to obtain the protection of the god who rules a particular eighth section of the universe. Another reason for this puja is that one doesn’t know from which direction the Absolute Lord will come.[15] A different god, seemingly chosen according to need, is invoked for each direction. Father D’Sa himself chanted eight names as he touched the flowers to his forehead, nose and chest, then carefully arranged them on the altar at the compass points surrounding the host and chalices.

After the Great Amen, the dancing girls performed a triple arati of flowers, fire and incense to the accompaniment of more pagan chants whilst the celebrants held aloft the consecrated Sacred Species. Father D’Sa announced that this blasphemy was “the climactic part of our Eucharistic Prayer”.  At the Kiss of Peace, the congregation was told to fold their hands and do the Indian greeting of namaste to their neighbors. Namaste means “the god in me honors the god in you”. It awakens the third eye of the greeter to worship the god in the greeted.[16]

Another abomination took place at the Our Father. Instead of reciting the prayer together as a congregation, the people were asked to sit down while the girls launched into another interpretive dance number. Most gestures were completely un-fathomable, with the exception of receiving bread and forgiving trespasses (a shove, hurt feelings, forgiveness, hugs all around). The musical accompaniment was a Hare Krishna chant! Father D’Sa intoned the words “Our Father” four times. The response each time was the mantra “Hare Krishna”; towards the end of the prayer, the mantra was repeated over and over. Krishna, the reincarnation of Vishnu, who represents the Absolute Lord, is said to have se-duced 16,000 women, and a whole occult, erotic literature has been developed around this aspect of Krishna.[17] The words “Hare Krishna” mean “O energy of the Lord (Hare), O Lord (Krishna), please engage me in your service!” This energy is actually the goddess Radha, Krishna’s chief consort, who “helps the de-votee achieve the grace of the supreme Father,” Krishna, who reveals himself to the sincere devotee. The mantra “Hare Krish-na” is thus supposed to awaken spiritual consciousness.[18]

Replacing the Final Blessing, the Dance of the Last Supper was performed to illustrate the “social dimension” that should result from celebrating the Eucharist. The portrayal of “what we must do when we go out into the world” included the washing of the feet and another depiction of forgiveness.   Finally came the mutual gestures of appreciation between the two priests. The pastor announced a second collection to defray the touring expenses of the troupe. In gratitude for his hosting of the “Indian Order of the Eucharist,” the pastor was presented with a garland of flowers and a large picture of “Jesus as an Indian [i.e., Hindu] guru, Jesus in contemplation”.

The only applause came at the end of this presentation, and it seemed “led” and rather restrained. The absence of clapping by a liberal congregation was most unusual. Did the rituals engender a trance state, as intended, and as George had observed? Not everyone was hypnotized, however. Some people walked out during the service and others did not receive Communion.

All Hell Breaks Loose

Throughout the blasphemous puja-Mass, George’s friends Joan and Rose sat at the back, praying Rosaries, Litanies and other prayers. They spoke audibly, but quietly, “so that people would know something was wrong.” Right after the service, they started passing out copies of the Mother Teresa article to people inside the church. A Sister of St. Joseph (in plainclothes) testily enquired, “Did you get Father’s permission?”   “We don’t need Father’s permission,” they replied. The three kept handing out copies, urging people, “Read this. It explains everything that took place just now in this church.”

Standing on the front steps, they continued, “The church has been desecrated. The Body and Blood of Our Lord have been desecrated. Don’t go to this church any more!” At times they added, “The two priests are going to hell because of this!” Some people accepted the articles, others didn’t. One woman asked for a bunch and started distributing them herself.  The nun tried frantically to stop the demonstrators. “Get off the property! Get off the property!” she yelled. She ordered people not to take the article. “They don’t have Father’s permission. They are invading our church. They are strangers come to cause trouble.” She even snatched articles from parishioners’ hands and ripped them up.  People started hustling Rose and George down the steps. Suddenly, alerted by the furious nun, the pastor, still in his vestments (and garland), emerged and rushed wildly towards them. “Keep off the church property!” he shouted, trying to choke Rose.

“I saw the devil in his eyes,” she recalled.

George rushed to her defense, putting himself between the two. “Get your hands off her!” he shouted. “What do you think you’re doing, Father? Why are you picking on a woman? Pick on someone your own size!” (Rose is a diminutive 110 pounds, whilst both men are sturdily built, around 200 pounds.)   The priest knocked him aside and tried again to throttle Rose, so George intervened again. The priest was seen to punch and kick him, and George had to shove him away in self-defense. At some point the pastor was also seen ripping up Mother Teresa articles. Then he grabbed the bag of rolled-up placards Rose was holding and started shredding them to pieces. George retrieved the bag. Several times the trio accused the priest of being a wolf in sheep’s clothing.  About 50 church attendees were milling around, some seemingly stunned by the sight of their pastor attacking a woman and initiating a brawl. Several by-standers, however, entered the fray on the side of the priest, including one elderly woman who used her motorized wheelchair as a weapon. She ran over Rose’s foot, injuring it, and tried the same with George.  Many demanded to know who they were and from which organization they had come. “We are Roman Catholics just like you. We’re not from any organization,” they replied.

One man accused them of not following Vatican II.

Finally, indicating with a contemptuous hand movement that the trio were crazy, the pastor returned to the church. Ironically, he seemed to have forgotten the message of universal love and harmony pervading the Hinduized service.  For her own part, Rose thought only of the sacrileges, desecrations, and blindness of those involved. “It’s sad,” she said, reacting to the day’s events. “It’s very, very sad.” 

Notes: 

1. This is well documented in Victor J.F. Kulanday, The Paganization of the Church in India, 2d rev. ed. (San Thome, Madras: 1988).
2. Cornelia R. Ferreira, “Mother Teresa ‘Beatified’ with Idolatrous Rites,” Catholic Family News, January 2004 on the web at www.cfnews.org/beatipagan.htm (also available as a reprint #902 for $2.50US).
3. The original version is described in Kulanday’s book.
4. Ferreira, ibid.
5. India: The Lotus and the Cross, television documentary produced by Vishnu and Rita Mathur, SilverTouch Productions [Toronto], 2004.
6. Father Aidan Turner, “Man of Vision Bring [sic] Indian Dancers to Mass,” in “Diocesan News,” The Voice, www.thevoiceonline.org,  August 2005.
7. Ibid.; www.st-augustines-high.lancsngfl.ac.uk/index.html  (click on News, “Recent Events, “Nrityavani, June 1, 2005). The website lauds the troupe for spreading the Gospels “via Asian Dance,” thus disguising its Hindu-evangelizing nature even further.
8. “Silver Jubilee 2006,” www.artofliving.org
9. Jessie Rodrigues, “Bangalore: NBCLC Honours Art of Living Guru Sri Sri Ravi Shankar”.
10. Swami Bhajanananda Saraswati and Brahmachari Parameshwara, The Art of Seeing God,” www.kalimandir.org/homepage.asp  (click on “library”); Ashok Basargekar, “Perceiving the True Identity of the Absolute,” www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8891/pooja.txt   ; “Om: Symbol of the Absolute,” www.hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa022200.htm.  
11. Ferreira, ibid.; “Attributes of Ganesha,” www.emplenet.com/beliefs/whoisganesha.htm  
12. John B. Noss, Man’s Religions, 3d ed. (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1963), p. 279; Kulanday, pp. 82-83, 151.
13. Ferreira, ibid.
14. Articles on the dot can be found at www.experiencefestival.com/a/Hinduism/id/51452
 http://hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_9/msg00176.html ; www.jansarisevak.org.uk/HinduCulture.html ; and
www.experiencefestival.com/third_eye_chakra  
15. “Upachara: Offerings,” in “Shri Shri Shiva Mahadeva,” www.religiousworlds.com/mandalam/shiva.htm;  Jayaram V., “Ashtadikpalas: The Eight Vedic Gods,” www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/dikpalas.asp ; “Perceiving the True Identity”.
16. See www.experiencefestival.com/namaste .
17. Noss, pp. 287, 289-90.
18. “Maha-mantra,” www.krishna.com/main.php?id=620  ; A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Chanting Hare Krishna,” www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter7.html   ; “Hare Krishna …,” www.chanting.krishna.org/Articles/2003/04/009.html   ; Noss, pp. 289-290. Note: The mantra chanted at the Our Father was not the version popularized by the Hare Krishna Movement.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: canada; toronto; waronjesus
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To: NYer
What was celebrated in St. Ann's in Toronto is a blasphemy and should be reported to Cardinal Arinze, immediately. Those involved in its preparation and celebration, should be brought to repentance or excommunicated.

You are so right!

61 posted on 08/17/2006 10:45:29 AM PDT by FJ290
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To: muawiyah
I'll take David's example as sufficient for the purpose of proving that dancing is acceptable in the eyes of God.

I'll take David's example as sufficient for the purpose of proving that dancing is acceptable in the eyes of God, except in the Temple, since there is no biblical record of dancing in the Temple.

And since, according to you, there is no earthly authority besides Scripture, we're at an impasse.

Or maybe we should look to the Church to settle our disagreement, as Scripture instructs us.

62 posted on 08/17/2006 10:47:01 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Pyro7480
Taking pleasure in another's misfortune is anything but Christian.

My thoughts exactly. I question the fact that so many of our 'non-Catholic Christian' brothers and sisters continually attack the Catholic Church and do seem to take pleasure in our problems. I doubt Jesus is smiling at their behavior and thoughts.

I put single quotes around the above phrase so that it would stand out as a complete phrase and not be parsed apart. It would be easier to say 'protestants', but I would hate to offend anyone...

63 posted on 08/17/2006 10:50:36 AM PDT by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: Aquinasfan
Hmmm ~ no doubt that could be an interesting discussion ~ get a couple of religious hermits out of the Jordanian desert first, then build the group from there adding a Patriarch here and a Pope there, and so forth.

However, none of that has to do anything with what God might satisfy Himself with concerning dancing.

But first, a question, are you trying to shift the discussion over to "holy ground" perhaps?

If so I don't go there. Too many people ready to make war over the concept, and places they think to be especially "sacred". Lot of bad ju-ju in that discussion.

64 posted on 08/17/2006 10:53:19 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
I assume you are providing some of the admonitions in that regard, right? The other day we had a Freeper post what looked to be a dozen such admonitions.

I'm trying to follow the principle of "Scripture Alone." You're free to interpret them as you please, as far as I know.

Anyway, does the following seem to you like a recommendation for the private interpretation of Scripture?

2 Peter 3:16

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And does the Scriptural description of Christ's Church as "the pillar and foundation of truth" (or Christ's command to take our disputes "to the church") strike you as a recommendation of Luther's principle of "the Bible alone"?

Remember, there are no right or wrong answers. Just your personal interpretation.

65 posted on 08/17/2006 10:55:01 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: muawiyah
And your point is?

What AquinasFan said. No one ever danced in the Temple. Or Or at the Last Supper. Or on Calvary.

And please, correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere is it indicated that David did well by dancing before the Ark. Indeed, it is related that his act caused enmity between him and his first wife, to the result that he had no children with her.

2 Samuel 6:21-23--"21 And David said to Michol: Before the Lord, who chose me rather than thy father, and than all his house, and commanded me to be ruler over the people of the Lord in Israel, 22 I will both play and make myself meaner than I have done: and I will be little in my own eyes: and with the handmaid of whom thou speakest, I shall appear more glorious. 23 Therefore Michol the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death."

This also seems to presage the more despicable acts that David would commit later in his reign. Nowhere does it seem to be lauding his dancing before the Ark.
66 posted on 08/17/2006 10:55:09 AM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: muawiyah
Sounds like some of the laity are not happy with that idea. Of course that's never stopped Rome has it?!

And once the Magesterium acts, the laity will follow. The issue is that individual parishes are not allowed to go and do their own thing. That would be protestant-like.

67 posted on 08/17/2006 10:55:46 AM PDT by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: Aquinasfan
Here's the trick, if you want to discuss Reform "issues" go talk to someone in a Reform church, e.g. Lutheran, Presbyterian, Dutch.

I don't talk for them; they don't talk for me.

68 posted on 08/17/2006 10:56:35 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: technochick99

>>I question the fact that so many of our 'non-Catholic Christian' brothers and sisters continually attack the Catholic Church and do seem to take pleasure in our problems.<<

What's even more amazing is that an article about an "innovative" (in my mind, abusive) mass, is taken as the opportunity to bash the Catholic Church.

I still don't understand why this is allowed, but the mods rule.


69 posted on 08/17/2006 10:59:06 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
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To: muawiyah
But first, a question, are you trying to shift the discussion over to "holy ground" perhaps?

No, I was attempting to shift the discussion to the fundamental error of Protestantism.

If so I don't go there. Too many people ready to make war over the concept, and places they think to be especially "sacred". Lot of bad ju-ju in that discussion.

So we should shrink from battles that are worth fighting?

Regardless, the tabernacle that contains Christ's Body and Blood in the Eucharist is more hallowed ground than even the Holy of Holies.

70 posted on 08/17/2006 11:00:27 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Antoninus
Doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with his dancing either ~

But, back to the point, David danced. Whether he danced in a tabernacle or not that would be a relevant question and I didn't find out if he did so. On the other hand, he danced before/around, etc. the Ark.

There was no Temple at the time so it would have been quite impossible for him to dance in the Temple.

I think what we have are two different situations to discuss. One is this business of dancing in an RC church. Another is whether or not dancing is reported in the Bible to have ever occurred in a religious context.

Obviously dancing got a bad rep in the early days of Christianity when Herod was led astray by a dancing girl into chopping off John the Baptist's head. At the same time we can't know if dancing of any kind ever occurred in the earliest churches because those structures were either in India or Wales (with folks in the Mediterranean heartland continuing to use synagogues ~ according to many sources). I do not recall reading any early Christian literature that said anything one way or the other about India or Wales for that matter, but, that's where some of the first churches were as best anyone can tell.

Odds are good the folks in Inda danced while those in Wales sang in the choir.

71 posted on 08/17/2006 11:04:39 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: technochick99

From the onesidedness of the article we are working with it's difficult to tell if Rome cares about the situation surrounding St. Thomas' churches in India.


72 posted on 08/17/2006 11:07:07 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Aquinasfan
I'm sure it's a very meaningful discussion for you, but the only reason it even came into this thread is I asked about the RC definition of "altar" ~ how big, how high, how far around, who is allowed to do what ~ and I found remarkably little on the matter (in lay language) that was understandable.

The only reason to ask the question was because some seemed disturbed that there was what some might describe as dancing taking place in the vicinity of the altar.

73 posted on 08/17/2006 11:10:22 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with his dancing either ~

Uh, yes it does. Forgive me, but I assumed you had some knowledge of the passage in question. Go here to read the whole thing:

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/10006.htm

But, back to the point, David danced.

Yes. And my point was that by dancing before the Ark, he did poorly. It was an indication of how haughty, arrogant, and sexually profligate he was already becoming.

I think what we have are two different situations to discuss. One is this business of dancing in an RC church. Another is whether or not dancing is reported in the Bible to have ever occurred in a religious context.

That it occurred is not in dispute. The point is, it was not a good thing. Similarly, there is no tradition of dance within the early Christian Church. If you can produce concrete evidence that the Syro-Malabar rite of the 1st through 4th centuries AD included dance, then by all means, do so. Otherwise, you're just operating from assumptions.
74 posted on 08/17/2006 11:11:26 AM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: Antoninus

It's really difficult to imagine Indian people of any kind NOT dancing in a religious context.


75 posted on 08/17/2006 11:14:30 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: netmilsmom; Aquinasfan; FJ290; Coleus; Titanites
What's even more amazing is that an article about an "innovative" (in my mind, abusive) mass, is taken as the opportunity to bash the Catholic Church. Protestants and "sola scriptura".

There - fixed it. I happen to agree with FJ290's dual assessments of this story:

- This has nothing whatsoever to do with dance.
- Sorry, but this kind of CRAP needs to be knocked off and knocked off FAST! All this does is bring scandal to the faith and causes disruption.

God forbid that a Protestant should call your attention to the obvious first. I'd have hoped more FR Catholics would have stepped up and agreed with FJ290. Apparently some of you see no need to get your own house in order.

When any of you see a "sola scriptura" church (especially ones that hold to the Westminster Confession - none of these wishy-washy liberal ones, now) allowing it's ordained ministers and staff to combine pagan Hindu rituals with their worship services, be sure to let us know about it.

76 posted on 08/17/2006 11:24:59 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: muawiyah
It's really difficult to imagine Indian people of any kind NOT dancing in a religious context.

Sorry, but that kind of speculation doesn't hold any water with me. I need to see some primary source evidence. It's like saying: "I can't see the French of 2,000 years ago not drinking champaign and smoking cigarettes."
77 posted on 08/17/2006 11:27:05 AM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: Aquinasfan; little jeremiah
I think one must be very careful -- I mean very careful --- in trying to distinguish legitimate inculturation from dangerous syncretism. One can go too far in either direction.

The Church has had long experience with both, and in the long run has been protected (as Christ promised) from doctrinal error; but in the short run, priests, bishops, and even popes have made serious mistakes in terms of how to transmit the fullness of the Faith to the whole world ---to people of every language and culture --- in an effective and faithful way.

Let me digress a little to give this a wider context. Two examples: the Guadalupe experience, and the Chinese Rites controversy.

For many years the Church looked with doubt or even hostility at Mexican devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Bishop of Mexico at that time, Fray Juan Zumarraga, never mentioned the 1531 apparitions in his writings --- not even in his "Regla Christiana" of 1547. Even the scholarly Franciscan Bernardino de Sahagun, responsible for recovering the ancient Aztec codices, was reluctant to encourage devotion to Guadalupe. He feared idolatry: Tepeyac was the site where the earth goddess Tonantzin, mother of the Aztec deities, once had her temple. It was suspected (especially by the Franciscans) that Aztecs dancing, playing their flutes and drums, and bringing flower-offerings were in fact honoring Tonantzin and not Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.

Opinions were deeply divided, and it wasn't until 135 years after the visions of Cuauhtlatoatzin (Juan Diego) that the Mexican hierarchy formally acknowledged that this was a Christian, not pagan, religious devotion.

How many failed to encounter Christ because of the Mexican hierarchy's long resistance to indigenous cultural forms?? Maybe millions. Maybe tens of millions.

Then there's the "Chinese Rites Controversy," the most disastrous setback in the history of Christian missions. Matteo Ricci, a brilliant and devout Jesuit in China in the late 1500's, built a very successful mission relating Catholicism (the Faith) with Confucism (the philosophy). It did not involve the invoking of false gods; but it did acknowledge that much of Confucian philosophy and practice --- such as the honoring of ancestors ---was based on Natural Law, and thus was compatible with Christianity and conducive to a good society and a virtuous life.

The opposition to Ricci's policies emerged from a faction of Franciscans, Dominicans, and a few Jesuits, who were deeply scandalized by the burning of incense at ancestor-shrines. They interpreted this as the worship of ancestors, but thousands of Chinese now understood it in a thoroughly Catholic way as praying for the souls of the dead. This culminated in Pope Clement XI, in 1704, issuing a Bull against Christian adherence to Confucian principles and practices.

The result? The Emperor was outraged, Christianity was banned, Westerners expelled, and China was cut off from all things Western, Catholicism and science and technology and everything, for generations.

The Roman curia finally recognized their error, and Papal Bull was lifted --- in the 1940s.

I'm not saying "accept eveything in other cultures," but equally, you can't "reject everything in other cultures." It's a careful sorting, adapting, rejecting, accepting process. As St. Paul teaches:

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

19Quench not the Spirit.
20Despise not prophesyings.
21Examine everything;
hold fast that which is good.
22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

78 posted on 08/17/2006 11:48:37 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy. .." Angel of Fatima.)
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To: Alex Murphy

When the article is about a Protestant service and the Catholic points the errors out first, you have a right to complain.

Check out how many posts came from the Usual Suspects at the top of this thread.

Like I said, I have no clue why this is allowed, but it is. The Mods rule and they allow Catholic bashing on threads that are about Catholic issues. Their turf, their rules.


79 posted on 08/17/2006 11:59:37 AM PDT by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
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To: B-Chan
That's because there is only one Church. All Christians are Catholic, whether they accept that fact or not. Those Christians who are members of schismatic sects (denominations, whatever) are still part of the Body of Christ; they are, sadly, its separated members.

But non-Catholic Christians cannot have eternal life, having not eaten the Body and drank the Blood of Jesus, correct?
80 posted on 08/17/2006 12:39:56 PM PDT by armydoc
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