Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock
AMEN
You said, "Again, 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 states that scripture is sufficient, which is the Catholic view."
If that is true, where does the doctrine of praying to Mary come from? I can't find a single scripture that supports it.
"I believe Paul is warning against idleness or laziness !"
My point exactly...you believe...but what has that to do with what 24,999 other denominations believe?
That is why unity is so very important. That does not mean that Orthodox cannot have a theological opinion, but when it comes to a direct contradiction to the mind of the Church (significantly different then the mind of one man, ie the Pope, or the pope in every man, ie Sola Scriptura).
Hundreds of years after the great schism, the reformers, appalled by what they saw in Rome through the baby out with the bathwater, or better put, cast away the body of Christ along with the cold lifeless image they saw in a mirror.
The image in a mirror is cold and lifeless, but other than looking like the real thing, it is "not" the real thing. The difference between Rome and Orthodoxy are greater than the distance between east and west, night and day. But if all one looks at is the surface the treasure will never be found. One must dig deep for Truth and not be afraid to find it...even when it shakes the very foundations of your ideology.
Today’s Christians born as Protestants or RCs, yes, even some Orthodox, don't get off any easier than did the Jews of the 1st century. Truth rocked their world, shook the very foundations of their beliefs, caused son to turn against father, daughter against mother, and follow Christ (Truth).
I tell you the Truth...the God that you know as a Protestant, RC, and yes, even many Orthodox that don't know they're own faith, is different from the God handed down and died for by many Martyrs for 2000 years.
A profound example: Why did God the Father let His Son die for your sins? The real answer may surprise you...or at least the answer outside western thought. The western theology that answers this question, is new, and has given rise to Atheism (not to be understood that all will become Atheists for many will fear this God so much that they will remain believing in Him). But is this really a God of Love that one must fear? One that needed the blood of His only Son to atone for His anger and appease His dishonor? This could not be furthest from the Truth, but you must dig for the answer...
Again I suggest you read a very short book, <20 pages, that help Protestants and RCs understand this profound difference in very important theology.
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
And if you choose not to read it…the treasure will remain hidden, but not because God wanted it to remain so.
I am so sorry, but I am unable to understand your point above. Written communication leaves itself open to interpretation which can vary among fallible men.
Also, there is no need for you to reply to me since it is not possible for you to know what I meant by my words above.
Further responses by you to posts here are a refutation of your position -- you assume you can interpret written communication of others.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
And then there is this little gem, from loooooonnnnnggggg past 16:16
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Easy question!
Have a great day!
-Theo
What faulty logic in interpretation to quote Mark 7:6-8 in such a way.
Christ was saying not to hold the traditions of man above the commandments of God...not that all the traditions of men are bad.
Your arguement implies that "any" traditions held by men are evil when in fact many are not only good, but according to Paul, even the Law acts as a good tutor.
Understand the spirit of what Christ speaks and rightly divide the word.
Traditions can speak of mysteries that cannot be touched by the limited words of men. The early church understood these mysteries and passed them on...not trying to explain them away with mere words as we do today.
Many traditions honor God in both word and deed. Don't misuse Gods word to stand you ground. Open you heart and separate light from darkness, Truth from what is false.
As I understand it, many claim that the original greek you refer to wasn't penned till the 3rd century...And that, by a fella named Origen, I believe...
The bias that have found their way into modern scripture has significantly changed many iota's and many tittle's.
Your church claims that Jerome translated the Latin vulgate from the 'originals'...And later the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible was translated into English...
Outside of Orthodoxy, I can't find a true version absent of bias.
Depends on what you call a 'true version'...
Again, as I understand it, 95% of ALL available preserved manuscripts are in line with the manuscripts used to pen the Catholic bible...Where the Catholic bible disagrees with the Majority Texts, those manuscripts came out of Alexandria Egypt, where as the Majorority Texts originated in Antioch, Syria (where people were first called Christians...
And, all modern English versions used the same Egyptian Catholic manuscripts except for the King James Bible (and unfortunately, the New King James) which again, came out of Antioch...
When the Egyptian manuscripts disagree with 5% of the vast majority, it stands to reason that the 5% do not belong...And it's not just jot and tittles...It's verses like 'call no man father', changing the 10 Commandments where it deals with worshipping graven images, rejecting priests that wear long robes, etc..It's an interesting study when you look at the other side of it...
Your implication is that THAT pre-denominational church is what became the Catholic church...And that doesn't make any sense...
As the article clearly points out, your church disagrees with the bible in so many places, how could it possibly be the 'original' church???
"I believe in the Christ of the Bible and not an idol created by the minds of men."
Are you not a man? Do you not have a mind? Or are you claiming that so long as it's not from the mind of another man?
But then you've done nothing but create God in your image!
Humility comes when you find that your opinion is meaningless in light of the Body of Christ...His Church...the one guided by the Promise that it would be taught all Truth, by the Spirit of Truth!
But when we come to the point that all others are wrong and it is only "me, myself, and I" that is correct...that should send up a red flag in our soul.
But even those polemic to Christ asked "who are you to teach us?"
There is no room in a heart filled with pride for the love of God to enter.
7,713 words to live by. Great post. Now, on to the debate....
Yes, they can.
But, they shouldn't.
"As the article clearly points out, your church disagrees with the bible in so many places, how could it possibly be the 'original' church???"
I'm sorry that Rome has blurred Orthodoxy to the point that many in the west know no difference.
"Your implication is that THAT pre-denominational church is what became the Catholic church...And that doesn't make any sense..."
That's like claiming that because the Gnostics that Paul battled thought of themselves as the church that they were really the church. Paul dealt with a few heretics, but as the centuries unfolded, evil confronted the real church on many fronts. Each one wants to be known as the real church, but that does not make it so. Orthodoxy simply means "right worship" and it is the original church regardless of what others may claim; history proves this out.
While Rome and all Protestant churches change Liturgy (Mass, Service, or whatever they call it today) as often as one would a table cloth, the Orthodox church still holds 4 Liturgies from the early church.
In Jerusalem one can find the Orthodox church holding the Liturgy of St James, written by none other than St James as given to him by the Lord (although many will again argue that it wasn't penned until many centuries later which is true but that's the beauty of holy traditions that never change). Imagine that, a Liturgy or service given by the Lord Himself as He wants to be worshipped. Not a minister changing the pattern of the service as he sees fit or a vatican council searching for the latest Peter, Paul, and Mary band to attract the masses. Our newest Liturgy is actually the 4th in a series of shortened versions of St James (the Church really does have compassion for those that could not stand for hours). I can fly to Mt Athos Greece and walk into a Liturgy that was performed by Paul, Peter, and countless thousands of others over the centuries and know exactly where in the worship I am. And how are the Liturgies of Orthodoxy, just read from Isaiah or Revelation to see that it is no different than the angelic host worship God...for God does not change as man changes...but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever more.
No interpretation here, brother. Jesus said it again and again:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Christ was saying not to hold the traditions of man above the commandments of God...not that all the traditions of men are bad.
No disagreement here with that statement. Traditions that do not contradict scripture are great.
Your arguement implies that "any" traditions held by men are evil when in fact many are not only good, but according to Paul, even the Law acts as a good tutor.
Please quote me in further posts. I do imply stuff a lot, but I will need a written reference to keep it all straight :)
Understand the spirit of what Christ speaks and rightly divide the word.
Actually, what I did first was to read the Bible and see if Catholicism was in there. I came up short, just like the Cardinal here says:
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." Cardinal Gibbons (for many years head of the Catholic Church in America), The Faith of Our Fathers (92d ed., rev.; Baltimore: John Murphy Company), p.89.
Traditions can speak of mysteries that cannot be touched by the limited words of men. The early church understood these mysteries and passed them on...not trying to explain them away with mere words as we do today.
Precisely, which is why I read the Bible in the context of the first century. Traditions such as Sunday worship. Christmas, Easter, confession, Mary worship, idolatry, transubstantiation, etc. are all deceptions meant to trick men into worshipping the Deceiver.
Many traditions honor God in both word and deed. Don't misuse Gods word to stand you ground. Open you heart and separate light from darkness, Truth from what is false.
Indeed. Here's a good tradition:
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Who gets to interpret Papal declarations?
Let me rephrase that:
Who gets to interpret Papal declarations?
ROTFLOL!
That is a classic!
Well, for starters, It's not exactly fair to rip nine books out of the bible and THEN say, "but it's not in the bible."
But, Revelations depicts the souls in Heaven watching the events on Earth below while they pray to Christ.
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