Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock
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That is an unfounded assumption on your part. The passages in question do not mention children. Therefore, you have a pure argument from silence in this regard, and it is not helpful.
Worse, there is mentioned in some manner in each household baptism story a note about those baptized coming to faith. This would not be reportable if those households included infants.
A better approach to justifying infant baptism is to recognize it as a probationary sign developed as a tradition to demonstrate a child's place within the household of God, for the certainly are set apart (sanctified) in the eyes of the Lord. "Otherwise your children would be unholy, but as it is they are holy."
This all holds until they "accept for themselves the gift of faith."
Just my 2 cents worth.
Actually, there is both a spiritual lineage and an ordination lineage that should be recognized.
In my opinion, a member of the PCA can trace his faith through his doctrines back to the earliest Christian teachings.
Also, a member of the PCA can trace his faith through faithful men back to the earliest Christian teachings. Their history goes back to the Reformation, through those transitional figures to the same historic church that Roman Catholics accept, to the early fathers, and from those fathers to the early church.
Probably not, since Ru'ach HaKodesh sounds like a Hebrew word, and the people who selected the books to include in the Christian bible spoke Greek. But, then, I suppose, if you really expected an answer, you'd be a mensch and use English translations , rather than having fun showing off, "ooo! I know some Hebrew phrases!"
117 posted on 08/15/2006 12:08:32 PM MDT by dangus
I'm not sure about Dios or Theos or Got. My Redeemer is "YHvH is my salvation" or Yahu'shua as He was named by His mother Miriam.My L-rd and Master is YHvH I know He is King of the Universe , Creator of All.
b'shem Yahu'shua
"Actually, calling it 'Sola Scriptura' might be contrued as a bit of a misnomer, because it is not a doctrine which teaches that we believe that there are not other authorities, nor that they have no value or place. Rather, it means that all other authorities must be subordinate to the Word of God."
The above quote is very important in understanding the Reformers idea of "sola scriptura" in that it really meant SUPREME OR FINAL UNQUESTIONABLE AUTHORITY rather than no other authorities in the life of a Christian. Common sense and tradition, as a part of what may be termed "general revelation" have a place in guiding a Christian, where direction cannot be clearly discerned from the bible...we get advice from other Christians (call it "tradition" if they are from the past) and intelligence/education all the time--which is fine, in fact the best attitude, as long as we put these authorities under the supreme authority of scripture. This counters too the common Roman assumption of hyper-individualism of Protestants... a "bible alone and I" way of looking at things...which surely leads to schism and error.
All and all an excellent post, well argued.
WHAT!!! God is a heretic. Say it ain't so. Actually, WriteOn, since Gamecock and I are a part of the same group, I can speak on this. We are a part of those entrusted by God to hold the very doctrines of the truth of Scripture and we don't merely trace our church back a mere 2000 years, as if Christ the Eternal King could reign without subjects. No, we trace our church back to the beginning.
Peter and his successors, as you put it, are made out by some in the church to be johnny come lately given that the church had been in existence for at least 4000 years prior Peter's day.
What's your pastor's pedigree? :) ~ WriteOn
Not a johnny come lately. ;)
We believe and confess one single catholic or universal church... This church has existed from the beginning of the world and will last until the end, as appears from the fact that Christ is eternal King who cannot be without subjects. ~ Belgic Confession.
post tenebras lux,
Bump for a great post!
I think there is danger when the New Covenant is interpreted so broadly as to erase one of the 10 Commandments, espcially in light of all the warnings against lawlessness.
But the point of my post is that Protestantism is supposed to be Biblical. If an educated un-religious man, say an old Soviet or a Cuban, read a Bible cover to cover, what day would he keep holy?
Au contrare', monfraire. The Catholic Church boldly professes that it changed the day of worship. I did not come to my belief lightly. I searched that Bible for 4 years trying to prove Sunday. NIV, KJV, Red Letter Catholic, you name it. No dice.
29 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord's day, she had handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course it is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church." D. B. Ray, The Papal Controversy, 1892, page 179 30 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "I have repeatedly offered $1000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. Priest Thomas Enright, CSSR, President of Redemptorist College, Kansas City, Missouri, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, and printed in the American Sentinel, June 1883, a New York Roman Catholic journal. 31 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her Divine mission, changed the day [of worship] from Saturday to Sunday. ... The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church, as Spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant world." Editorial, The Catholic Mirror (Baltimore), September 23, 1893. 32 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." Cardinal Gibbons (for many years head of the Catholic Church in America), The Faith of Our Fathers (92d ed., rev.; Baltimore: John Murphy Company), p.89. 33 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible." James Cardinal Gibbons, Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893. 34 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Catholic] Church outside the Bible." "To Tell You the Truth," The Catholic Virginian, 22 (October 3, 1947), 9. 35 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "The Divine institution of a day of rest from ordinary occupations and of religious worship, transferred by the authority of the [Catholic] Church from the Sabbath, the last day, to Sunday the first day of the week, ... is one of the most patent signs that we are a Christian people." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Cross and the Flag, Our Church and Country (New York: The Catholic Historical League of America, 1899), pp. 24, 25. 36 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Sunday is founded, not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no Scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday." Catholic Record, Sept. 17, 1893 37 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "They (the Protestants) deem it their duty to keep the Sunday Holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason... The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance... The author of the Sunday law... is the Catholic Church." Ecclesiastical Review, Feb. 1914. 38 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Q. Which is the Sabbath Day? "A. Saturday is the Sabbath day. "Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? "A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Guierman, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957 ed.), p.50. Copyright 1930 by B. Herder Book Co., St.Louis. 39 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday." Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (New York: P. J. Kennedy & Sons) p. 136. 40 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Q. Have you any other way of proving that the [Catholic] Church has power to institute festivals of precept? "A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; ... she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism (3rd American ed., rev.; New York: T. W. Strong, late Edward Dunigan & Bro., 1876), p. 174. 41 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "But the Protestant says: How can I receive the teachings of an apostate Church? How, we ask, have you managed to receive her teachings all your life, in direct opposition to your recognized teacher, the Bible, on the Sabbath question?" The Christian Sabbath (2nd ed.; Baltimore: The Catholic Mirror, 1893), p. 29, 30. 42 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith (Chancellor of the Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore), replying for the Cardinal in a letter of February 10, 1920.) 43 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of JESUS CHRIST, has transferred this [Sabbath] rest to the Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church." Louis Gaston de Segur, Plain Talk About The Protestantism of To-day (Boston: Patrick Donahoe, 1868), p. 225. 44 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the [Catholic] Church, has no good reason for its Sunday theory, and ought, logically, to keep Saturday as the Sabbath. ..." John Gilmary Shae, "The Observance of Sunday and Civil Laws for Its Enforcement," The American Catholic Quarterly Review, 8 (January, 1883), 152. 45 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant." "The Question Box," The Catholic Universe Bulletin, 69 (August 14, 1942), 4. 46 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "The Israelite respects the authority of the Old Testament only, but the [Seventh-day] Adventist, who is a Christian, accepts the New Testament on the same ground as the Old, viz: an inspired record also. He finds that the Bible, his teacher, is consistent in both parts, that the Redeemer, during His mortal life never kept any other day than Saturday. The Gospels plainly evince to Him this fact; whilst, in the pages of the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles and the Apocalypse, not the vestige of an act canceling the Saturday arrangement can be found." Editorial, The Catholic Mirror (Baltimore), September 2, 1893. 47 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh Day Adventist is right in observing the Saturday with the Jew." Bertrand L. Conway, The Question Box Answers (New York: The Columbus Press, 1910), p. 254. 48 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "If you follow the Bible alone there can be no question that you are obliged to keep Saturday holy, since that is the day especially prescribed by Almighty God to be kept holy to the Lord." F. G. Lentz, The Question Box (New York: Christian Press Association, 1900), p. 98. 49 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday. The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. Protestants must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, 'Keep holy the Sabbath Day.' The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church." Canon Cafferata, The Catechism Explained, p. 89. 50 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! Father Conway: "If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing the Saturday with the Jew. But Catholics learn what to believe and do from the Catholic Church, which in Apostolic times made Sunday the day of rest. ... Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Church." Question Box Answers, an official publication of the Catholic Church. 51 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! Plain Talk: "The observance of Sunday by Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) Church." Plain Talk about Protestantism of Today, by Msgr. Segur (RC). 52 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! John O'Brien, Ph.D., LL.D.: "But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible, and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about 15 centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." Faith of Millions, pp. 543 and 544. 53 Candid Confessions of the Catholic Church! "Hence, the conclusion is inevitable; namely that of those who follow the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and the Seventh-day Adventists have the exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the Biblical Protestant has not a word in self defense for his substitution of Sunday for Saturday." Catholic Mirror.
1. Yeah, I read that the other 652,059 times you posted it.
2. If you haven't figured it out by now, printing unnecessarily in really large fonts is generally considered a sign of mental instability on the internet. Or at least extreme obnoxiousness.
3. In no way do I deny that the Roman Catholic church established Sunday as the holy day of the week. What I was asserting is that the Catholic Church had a biblical reason for doing so, since Christ resurrected on a Sunday.
Did you have anything to say, or are you just having fun throwing around foreign language words? Here's a tip: Using "G-d" is one thing. Using "L-rd" is downright silly. The Ancient Jews used "Adonai" (Lord) precisely to avoid writing YHVH. Avoiding writing "Lord," and then using the tetragrammaticon is about as sensible as a vegetarian smack addict.
I pray your name will be found in the book of Life.
2. The font comes from the page I got it from. I realize I have a problem with fonts. I'm seeking a 12 step to get me through.
3. The Bible doesn't say Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. But if it did, what of it? If Jesus was resurrected on Mardi Gras, would the priest toss out beads during communion?
I wonder if you can give a complete and accurate account of the doctrine of praying to Mary in such a way that a Catholic schooled in theology would say,"Yes. That's what we believe and teach."
ping
Well, at least you still have a sense of humor :^D
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