Long Journey to Rome (Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for Catholic Church)

San Diego News Notes ^ | ANNA KRESTYN

[ladyinred]

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" 1 Tim 2:1-3

I am confused. To me the scripture you quoted is saying that WE should pray, intercede etc for all men, give thanks etc. I don't see that someone in Heaven is being spoken of here. Am I missing something?

[ladyinred]

Therefore if I ask you today to pray for me, and tomorrow you die, I can still ask you to pray for me. We are one community on earth and in heaven.

I think that is a lovely thought, just not sure about it. I wish it to be true, but I just don't know. It is foreign to my way of thinking I guess, because I have never been taught that.

[ladyinred]

ecause what they're really after, at least most of them, is a club to bash the Church with. IMO.

I must say that isn't the reason most of us would think that. It is because we are not taught that in our Churches. I have been surprised at the amount of animosity that exists between Protestants and Catholics. And yes, it does work both ways. I have no bad feelings about Catholics, but now realize they don't accept me. At least that is the feeling I get on this forum. Very sad actually that this happens.

[politicallyincarrect]

>>I am confused. To me the scripture you quoted is saying that WE should pray, intercede etc for all men, give thanks etc. I don't see that someone in Heaven is being spoken of here. Am I missing something?<<

Your interpretation is correct... However, Catholic doctrine has quite a different worldview when it comes to theology... Which at best results in illogical conclusions... And at its worst is downright blasphemous...

[politicallyincarrect]

>>I think that is a lovely thought, just not sure about it. I wish it to be true, but I just don't know. It is foreign to my way of thinking I guess, because I have never been taught that.<<

The idea of "praying to the dead", or even "praying for the dead" is foreign to the Scriptures, also... But, both are an integral part of Roman Catholic dogma...

[La Enchiladita]

One of the problems with Evangelicals, however, is that it's very hard for them to get rid of the "middle class white person = good Christian" mentality, which was fine in Evangelical churches but doesn't work in the Catholic Church.

Do you REALLY believe this? Have you ever watched John Hagee and the congregation he preaches to? Or Joel Osteen? Also, SBC churches have huge Hispanic congregations throughout the U.S.

What an embarassing generalization you made...

[.30Carbine]

Thank you both for your comments, and for pinging me to them. I see the Spiritual Gifts thus: The only thing that has changed, being ordained to change, was that the gift of Prophecy turned from being the entrance of God's Word through prophets to the proclamation of His Word through prophets. Two texts:

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Daniel 9:24

And I fell at his feet to worship him.
But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant,
and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus.
Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revlation 19:10

[jo kus]

I apologize if you took my remarks as snide. My intent was to show from Scripture that Sola Fide is not biblical. You have not proven me wrong. I understand your new manuever is a face-saving one. So be it. I would be happy to show you that other Catholic doctrines are NOT against Scriptures, unlike Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. But I doubt you will give me that opportunity.

I will leave it to others who have read our exchanges to determine whether I have shown Sola Fide is NOT biblical. Your understanding of Scripture is based on the findings of men of today's culture and their own ideas, while mine is based on the Tradition passed down from 2000 years, so I suppose I have an advantage - access to the Truth given to the Apostles...

Good luck to you and God bless in your future endeavors.

Regards

[jo kus]

I am confused. To me the scripture you quoted is saying that WE should pray, intercede etc for all men, give thanks etc. I don't see that someone in Heaven is being spoken of here. Am I missing something?

I cited 1 Tim 2:1-3 to show that others can intercede for men. The problem presented was that only Jesus Christ is the Mediator. The gentlemen I was speaking with told me that because Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man, then no one else can "mediate". I pointed to the context of 1 Tim 2:5, which the immediately preceding verses show St. Paul telling Timothy that Christians ARE to intercede for men. Thus, this goes against the idea that Jesus is the only interceder for men.

When St. Paul says Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, he means that ONLY CHRIST is both God and Man. He shares both natures. Thus, He knows what men have gone through, He has suffered and has undergone trials. God has not experienced that before the Incarnation, being impassible. As the letter to the Hebrews notes, Jesus is our representative before God in the "Holy of Holies".

My comments had nothing to do with heavenly intercessors. However, if you look to the Book of Revelation, you will find the saints in heaven praying for our sake. Death will not separate us from the love of Christ, says St. Paul. As a result, the dead saints will be more alive in Christ than they are here on earth (again, St. Paul says the "dead" saints are not dead in spirit) - and the prayers of a righteous man are truly efficacious, says St. James. Thus, the Scriptures imply that it is a pious and righteous thing to ask for the prayers of other Christians - some of which may be in heaven. We note this from the earliest Christian practices through the study of archaeology. THEY understood that prayers to the "dead" saints were efficacious - and so do we, as Christianity is a revealed religion.

Regards

[jo kus]

Krista wrote: Therefore if I ask you today to pray for me, and tomorrow you die, I can still ask you to pray for me. We are one community on earth and in heaven.

I think that is a lovely thought, just not sure about it. ladyinred wrote : I wish it to be true, but I just don't know. It is foreign to my way of thinking I guess, because I have never been taught that.

It is based on the Body of Christ. As St. Paul says in 1 Cor and Romans and Ephesians, we are part of the Body of Christ. Since death cannot separate us from Christ, we understand that even after our physical bodies have died, we are united - even more closely - to Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body. We are as cells - and when one suffers, the others suffer. When one is glorified, others are glorified. The Church is primarily a community in Christ - which transcends death itself. Thus we are united with those people who have already gone to receive their reward in heaven.

It is a beautiful and consoling way of looking at things for those who have recently suffered the lose of a loved one. It keeps us united with these people. And being united with Christ, their love is now so much stronger. They will certainly care about our welfare as we continue to struggle here on earth.

Regards

[jo kus]

However, Catholic doctrine has quite a different worldview when it comes to theology... Which at best results in illogical conclusions... And at its worst is downright blasphemous..

Truly sad. Do you feel better about yourself, politicallyincarrect, that you can make such aside comments to another Christian but you can't back them up when discussing a theological topic with Catholics?? How on earth can you say yours is a biblical theology when you follow something that is ANTI-Biblical? We aren't talking about something that might be implied or developed, such as some Catholic beliefs. We are talking about James chapter 2 or 1 Cor 13 vs. "Sola Fide"... And you have the gall to make such accusations?

If you have the gumption to continue our conversation without bailing out over false sensitivities (an ironic thing, given your screen name...), you know where to find me...

As to ladyinred, it is a shame that you have to be cast into the middle of such polemics from a fellow Christian. God bless you and your search for the truth.

Regards

[jo kus]

The idea of "praying to the dead", or even "praying for the dead" is foreign to the Scriptures, also... But, both are an integral part of Roman Catholic dogma

It certainly is not "foreign" to Scriptures, nor is it foreign to the practice of Christians of 100 AD. Are you suggesting that the Christians of 100 AD were not aware of what the Apostles taught? That less than 80 years after Christ's death, the entire Church went into an apostasy, teaching heresy, without ONE utterance of dissent for the "true" faith, while simultaneously, dying in droves for the faith that they apostasized against???

Have you really given any thought to how ridiculous that sounds?

[TXnMA]

Campion wrote:"By the same token, faith without works is dead faith with no power to save. I didn't make that up, it's a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, you (or one of your teachers) did "make that up".
And, no, it is not "a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James".

IMO, you would be wise to heed Deuteronomy:

(1) Deut. 4:2—’Ye shall not add unto the Word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, 
that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.’

---

As cited by jo kus in #56:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also[.]"
James 2:26

Note that "little red dot[.] in the scripture passage. It denotes the end of the sentence, the end of the verse, and, in this case, the end of the chapter.

You added "faith with no power to save".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In fact, I was uncomfortable with jo kus' "also" -- so I looked up parallel translations:

ASV: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

BBE: For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead.

DBY: For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

KJV: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

WEY: For just as a human body without a spirit is lifeless, so also faith is lifeless if it is unaccompanied by obedience.

WEB: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

YLT: for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also the faith apart from the works is dead.

Note that only the 1611 English translation of a [Latin] translation [from Greek] (KJV) has the added "also".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, to avoid "cherry picking the Scriptures" (as "Bible thumpers" are wont to do), I advise reading verses in context:

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 
22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Footnotes:

James 2:8 Lev. 19:18
James 2:11 Exodus 20:14; Deut. 5:18
James 2:11 Exodus 20:13; Deut. 5:17
James 2:20 Some early manuscripts dead
James 2:23 Gen. 15:6

The way I understand those passages, "Works" or "Deeds" are the evidence of true, saving faith -- not an added requirement thereunto.

---

If I may, I'd like to create an analogy to illustrate my viewpoint:

Consider a "blank" cartridge (one with only primer and powder) versus a"live", "fully loaded" cartridge (one with primer, powder and a bullet).

Although both make the appropriate noise (claiming to have "faith"),
only the "real" cartridge makes a hole in the target ( produces "Works", "Deeds", "Results") as evidence that it is genuine.

OTOH, a hole in the paper is not required for the fully-loaded cartridge to be a genuine, usable ("live") cartridge.

~~~~~~~~~~~

My Lord, as a result of my faith in Him, has made me "live": "complete" ("with primer, powder and shot") -- "saved".
Although it is my joy to produce works for Him, (holes in my targets)
my failure to do so cannot negate His great work of grace and salvation in me.

28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).  (KJV, my emphasis added...)

"No man" ("no one" in most other translations) -- including 'me, myself, and I'
(by failing to produce "works" ) can negate His eternal gift to me.

---

<SOAPBOX MODE>

(Folks, it is difficult enough for us to commune in fellowship over difficult issues like this
-- without "making up Scripture 'on the fly'"...)

</SOAPBOX MODE>

[MHGinTN]

Well and truly stated! As I always told students, "If my retaining the Salvation He has granted to me was dependent upon me being able to preserve that Salavation, then it would be a weak thing indeed, for 'me' is a proven sinner, redeemed ONLY by His Grace toward me."

[jo kus]

In fact, I was uncomfortable with jo kus' "also" -- so I looked up parallel translations:

Sorry the Scriptures make you uncomfortable. Quite frankly, none of your other versions change the meaning of the version that I cited, the DRC:

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead." ASV

"Even so", "also", "and so" - same thing. If you don't have works of love, your faith is meaningless. It is clear that James is telling us that SAYING you have faith means nothing if you do not have works of love. He even gives real world examples!

James asks:

"shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14

It is amply clear that faith alone cannot save by this one verse. But the whole context merely echoes James Chapter 2. A Christian without love has a dead faith, a faith that cannot save. By trying to make the claim that works comes from the "faith engine" is false, because the "faith engine" does not produce works of love. GOD does while He abides within the Christian! It is faulty theology to presume that "faith" alone saves, as James clearly sets out to prove.

James and Paul merely express the two sides of the same coin.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Works without faith is dead (Paul)

You will need both love and faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity. " Gal 5:6

Faith AND works BOTH come from God. Faith is not a "generator" of good works. The vine is Jesus Christ. Our source of goodness is the Holy Spirit. NOT an attribute called "faith"... IF faith "automatically" led to good works of love, then you might want to reconsider the entire reason why ALL of the letters that follow the Acts of the Apostles have moral and ethical exhortations. IF faith "naturally" led to love, there would be NO NEED of such exhortations, they would come as one moved down the "conveyor belt" of faith...

Regards

[politicallyincarrect]

>>It certainly is not "foreign" to Scriptures, nor is it foreign to the practice of Christians of 100 AD. Are you suggesting that the Christians of 100 AD were not aware of what the Apostles taught? That less than 80 years after >>Christ's death, the entire Church went into an apostasy, teaching heresy, without ONE utterance of dissent for the "true" faith, while simultaneously, dying in droves for the faith that they apostasized against???

Have you really given any thought to how ridiculous that sounds?<<

With all due respect... Your post makes a "ridiculous" argument against the fact that nowhere in Scripture are we ever told to "pray to the dead", or to "pray for the dead"... Scriptural prayer is TO God, and FOR and BY the living...

I challenge you to respond with Scriptural opposition to what I've just said... If you think that some exists...

[NYer]

Yes, you (or one of your teachers) did "make that up". And, no, it is not "a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James".

The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

Heb 10:38

But my just one shall live by faith ...

Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...

The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.

1 Pet 2:12

Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.

Rev 2:2

I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...

Mt 5:16

Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

Mt 16:27

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Mt 25:34-36

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

1 Cor 15:58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Heb 6:10

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

James 2:20-22

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Mt 16:27

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

1 Cor 3:8

The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.

Col 3:23-24

Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:26

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Nor is man saved by works alone.

Rom 9:31-32

Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.

Gal 3:11

And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."

The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.

Eph 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Heb 6:1

Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

Heb 9:14

... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

2 Tim 1:9

He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:4-5

... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.

Rom 3:27-28

What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Gal 2:16

(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

referencer

[ladyinred]

Thank you, and God bless you as well.

[ladyinred]

Very good explanation about the body of Christ. I had never thought of it that way, but I understand now. Thanks!

[politicallyincarrect]

>>I will leave it to others who have read our exchanges to determine whether I have shown Sola Fide is NOT biblical.<<

We've both made our cases... I willing to let others decide for themselves as well...

>>Your understanding of Scripture is based on the findings of men of today's culture and their own ideas,<<

You don't have a clue how I've arrived at my "understanding of Scriptures"... So let me tell you... As I've said before... I have no axe to grind... I've looked at every view point, read numerous commentators, including RCC and compared them with Scripture... That is how I've come to my conclusions...

>> while mine is based on the Tradition passed down from 2000 years, <<

That is obvious... :-)

>>so I suppose I have an advantage - <<

Advantage? I think not considering the real source of your "traditions"...

>>access to the Truth given to the Apostles...<<

All truth is found in the Bible alone... Any man made interpretations of what the Apostles believed and practiced is invalid if it is not backed up by Scripture... Error is error no matter how many times it is believed, taught, or practiced...