Posted on 06/29/2006 5:36:14 PM PDT by NYer
ROME, JUNE 29, 2006 (Zenit.org).- An Egyptian Muslim and deputy director of a prominent Italian newspaper suggested that Mary could be the figure who brings Christians and Muslims together.
Magdi Allam of Il Corriere della Sera spoke to ZENIT about the appeal he launched in the pages of the national daily newspaper to Muslims living in Italy to visit the Marian shrines in their host country.
The journalist said that he is convinced that the Virgin Mary is a meeting point between Christians and Muslims.
"Mary is a figure present in the Koran, which dedicates an entire sura [chapter ed.n.] to her and mentions her some thirty times. In Muslim countries there are Marian shrines that are the object of veneration and pilgrimage by Christian and Muslim faithful," he said.
"Therefore, I believe that if this happens in Muslim countries, why can't it happen in a Christian country, especially in a historical phase in which we need to define symbols, values and figures that unite religions, spiritualities and cultures?" he asked.
In Allam's opinion, "the Marian pilgrimage of Loreto -- Italy's National Shrine -- could represent a moment of meeting and spiritual gathering between Muslims and Catholics, around Mary, a religious figure that is venerated by both religions."
Vittorio Messori, author of book-interviews with Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Benedict XVI), also wrote in Il Corriere della Sera on June 15 in support of Allam.
He said that the dialogue between Christians and Muslims "can begin afresh from Mary."
Thank you. It's good to know that all my hard work in trying to state things on this forum isn't all in vain, however unpopular I am.
For some reason we can "understand" everyone in the world other than the "redneck" Bible-thumper. Everyone else has a "reason" for believing or doing what he does, but the Fundamentalist Protestant is allegedly human excrescence without a brain in his head.
It's one thing when atheist liberals say this. It's quite another when Catholics latch onto the same idea.
Actually, Jews and Fundamentalist Protestants are the two peoples for whom Mary has no appeal whatsoever, but thank you anyway for be willing to consider the possible truth in my words.
This really is a huge thing, far bigger than most non-Protestants will ever realize. As a lifelong Protestant, I will tell you that if I thought, for one second, that the Bible was not inerrant, I would no longer be a Christian. If God's Word can be in error, why on earth would I try to follow God?
I may have quoted this statement, but I didn't make it, so part of your post should be aimed at someone else other than me.
Your universalism is actually heretical, but at least your belief in universal salvation is more internally consistent than a J*sus who is the redeemer of the human race but fails to assure the salvation of any individuals.
There is one point that for some reason doesn't seem to be getting through. You defend Catholic ritual and ceremonial and that is all well and good. But the fact is that Catholicism at its foundation utterly rejects Jewish ritual and ceremonial, most of which can actually be found right in the Bible. Traditional Catholic apologetics insists that Jewish ritual is "empty," "vain," "of none effect," and even "doctrines and commandments of men" (again, in spite of being found right in the Bible!). So the point is, why do you not understand people who apply the exact same logic to your ritual and ceremonial that you apply to the Jewish ritual and ceremonial?
According to Catholicism tefillin (authorized in four different passages in the Torah) is superfluous to a chr*stian. Why aren't rosary beads equally superfluous?
Please try to understand that question.
Because men, all men, throughout recorded history, screw things up, and others come along and correct their errors. This is true of every place and every time.
Where did I ever say or think such a thing? There are plenty of intelligent "Reformist" Christians. I happen to admire the great intellect of Dr. Ted Baehr, for example. You are the one is brings that up from time-to-time, not me.
You could not possibly be unaware of all the anti-literalist Catholic posts on this forum. What is the point with trying to discuss something with a dishonest person?
Where have I been dishonest?
How in the world is name-calling alone proving that my points are not valid?
I wasn't name-calling. I was accusing you of bearing false witness, by misrepresenting the Catholic/Orthodox positions. For example:
You said: With Catholics and Orthodox J*sus is like the corner of the paper towel placed in a spill of water . . . contact begins there and then spreads from the corner throughout the towel
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices (Paragraph 614).
Also, there's this one: By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19) (paragraph 623).
Also, from your perspective (I'm sorry for calling it a rant):
It is very hard for me not to notice that just as Catholicism prefers post-Biblical rituals to Biblical ones, so it also seems to prefer post-Biblical stories to Biblical ones. Have you not the slightest sympathy with someone who is being told that Adam and Noah are "unimportant" or "symbols whose actual existence has been disproved by science) when your own religion is full of illiterate bumpkins (not in America, but elsewhere) who may believe that St. George slew a dragon, St. Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland, Mary appeared to an Aztec peasant, and made the sun dance in Portugal? Can't you see the utter and flaming hypocrisy of such a stand, real or perceived?
I don't think Adam and Noah are "unimportant," nor is it fair for your to use a blanket statement, just as you're accusing Catholics of thinking all Protestants as "bumpkins."
If you want me to go on, I will.
Thanks for the compliment, but unfortunately you will agree with my final position no more than the Catholics here.
I'm not endorsing Fundamentalist Protestantism as the true religion, or even the true version of chr*stianity (it certainly lacks historical authenticity, having no roots in the ancient chr*stian past). What I'm trying to do is to get the Catholics here to stop being so smug and superior and see that you folks are human beings just like the American Indians whose native religion they have no problem with incorporating into Catholicism (totem poles don't contradict chr*stianity but Adam and Eve do???). I understand that to you scriptural quotations prove or disprove everything, and that's fine. But it allows your critics to dismiss you as "ignorant bigots with the IQ of a light bulb." I'm trying to show that even without traditional Protestant proof texts Catholic/Orthodox arguments are full of intellectual difficulties. Whether or not they choose to see this I don't know, but they can't say all I did was quote verses from "their bible" out of context!
Re: Mary a Meeting Point of Cultures, Says Muslim - Encourages Pilgrimages to Marian Shrines
From Conservative til I die | 06/30/2006 10:16:49 AM PDT read
I don't "HATE" her. I simply do NOT pray to her or elevate her in a position higher than any other SINNER. Mary is just another sinner in need of Christ for eternal life too.
>>>You may not hate her, but it's clear you don't like her very much, calling her nothing but a useless dead corpse and such.
>>>You are letting your dislike of the Catholic Church flavor your feelings toward Mary, and that's a shame.
nmh: Keep yout trashy replies to yourself. I don't "hate" anyone. I simply feel sorry for those in the Catholic church that wish to believe lies.
I don't want any more of your private e-mails.
We have NOTHING in common.
Totem poles are idols. Adam and Eve don't contradict Christianity.
Again, stop sending me this trash vie private replies:
Re: Mary a Meeting Point of Cultures, Says Muslim - Encourages Pilgrimages to Marian Shrines
From Conservative til I die | 06/30/2006 10:27:46 AM PDT new
Okay, now you can go about your usual Bible bashing!
Clearly, the Bible, God's Word does not agree with the fallible, mortal you chose to follow. I know, let's twist things and take things out of context to suit the words of another fallible mortal.
Okay time to start the Bible bashing and Protestant bashing!
>>>>Funny, no one was bashing Protestants or the Bible at all on this thread. Yet all you did was crap on Mary and the Church.
>>>>Seems to me you are itching for a fight. Might be time for the moderators to give you a week off.
=====
There you go again!
Still harassing me PRIVATELY after repeated requests NOT TO E-MAIL me privately.
Enough is enough!
Send NO MORE PRIVATE E-MAIL to nmh
Harrass someone else with your hate filled gibberish!
Re: Mary a Meeting Point of Cultures, Says Muslim - Encourages Pilgrimages to Marian Shrines
From Conservative til I die | 06/30/2006 10:27:46 AM PDT new
Okay, now you can go about your usual Bible bashing!
Clearly, the Bible, God's Word does not agree with the fallible, mortal you chose to follow. I know, let's twist things and take things out of context to suit the words of another fallible mortal.
Okay time to start the Bible bashing and Protestant bashing!
>>>>Funny, no one was bashing Protestants or the Bible at all on this thread. Yet all you did was crap on Mary and the Church.
>>>>Seems to me you are itching for a fight. Might be time for the moderators to give you a week off.
=====
There you go again!
Still harassing me PRIVATELY after repeated requests NOT TO E-MAIL me privately.
Enough is enough!
Send NO MORE PRIVATE E-MAIL to nmh
Harrass someone else with your hate filled gibberish!
Let me tell you something.
I live in the smallest county in my Bible Belt state. It is the only county in this part of the state with no Catholic church or mission of any kind whatsoever.
When I go to the official web site of the diocese in which I live I see a section dedicated to "gay and lesbian persons." The Catholic Church is very, very concerned that "gay and lesbian persons" not feeling "at home" in the Catholic Church.
Do you think for one minute that the diocese would ever, in a million billion years, have a ministry for "literalist persons" or "creationist persons" or have the slightest concern that such people might not feel "at home" in the Catholic Church? Do you?
Go to the Catholic Answers message board and read the posts of the poor soul who's been all but driven out of the Catholic Church by evolutionism and by constant questioning of his/her status as a "real Catholic." Do you think this person's bishop has a program for "persons" like him/her?
It is well-known that "private revelations," while permitted, or not dogmatically binding. However, there is no apologetics industry in existence devoted to the sole purpose of assuring sophisticates that they don't have to believe in Fatima, as there is with Genesis 1-11. And Genesis 1-11 is public revelation!
It seems to this outsider (and former insider) that the Catholic Church can stomach anything in the world except for the Bible (both the Jew's Torah and the Fundamentalist Protestant's Bible stories). If the book is so freaking dangerous, what do you use it for? After all, if the Catholic Church would just give up all claims to the "old testament" it would no longer be embarrassed by its "bloodthirsty, primitive" G-d or by people who believe in Him and in "all those silly stories" about Him.
You are one interesting individual.
As for me, I agree with you that it is of the utmost importance to try to be intellectually consistent.
For me , that is the fact of the matter with God.
I am not sure that I understand what you believe from having followed your posts. Care to give me some idea?
Huh?
If this website is saying that they can be both Catholic and practicing homosexuals, then the diocese is seriously in the wrong.
Go to the Catholic Answers message board and read the posts of the poor soul who's been all but driven out of the Catholic Church by evolutionism and by constant questioning of his/her status as a "real Catholic." Do you think this person's bishop has a program for "persons" like him/her?
I'm a serious doubter when it comes to the question of evolution, so I guess I'm not a "real Catholic" either! NOWHERE does it say in any official Catholic document that Catholics MUST believe in evolution. I'll bet that these same people are basing it on some words of John Paul II a few years back.
It seems to this outsider (and former insider) that the Catholic Church can stomach anything in the world except for the Bible (both the Jew's Torah and the Fundamentalist Protestant's Bible stories). If the book is so freaking dangerous, what do you use it for? After all, if the Catholic Church would just give up all claims to the "old testament" it would no longer be embarrassed by its "bloodthirsty, primitive" G-d or by people who believe in Him and in "all those silly stories" about Him.
I'm sorry you have this impression. There is a lot of cleaning that needs to be done in the Catholic Church. These same people, I'm betting, would have a problem with God sending fire and brimstone to Sodom! They ignore Jesus' own words, when He said:
And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say: Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. Yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand. I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom, than for that city (Luke 10: 8-12)
I guess it was very "hateful" of Our Lord when He said that! These hippie "Christians" are not Christians at all, and they're not just found in the Catholic Church.
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