Silence modern music in church, says Pope

The (London) Telegraph ^ | June 27, 2006 | Malcolm Moore

[Ebenezer]

The Pope has demanded an end to electric guitars and modern music in church and a return to traditional choirs.

The Catholic Church has been experimenting with new ways of holding Mass to try to attract more people. The recital of Mass set to guitars has grown in popularity in Italy; in Spain it has been set to flamenco music; and in the United States the Electric Prunes produced a "psychedelic" album called Mass in F Minor.

However, the use of guitars and tambourines has irritated the Pope, who loves classical music. "It is possible to modernise holy music," the Pope said, at a concert conducted by Domenico Bartolucci the director of music at the Sistine Chapel. "But it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music."

His comments prompted the newspaper La Stampa to compare him with Pope Pius X, who denounced faddish classical and baroque compositions and reinstated Gregorian chants in 1903.

The Pope's supporters argue that the music played during Mass is a vital part of the communion between worshippers and God, and that medieval church music, with the liturgy, creates the correct ambience for perceiving God's mystery.

Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, the Archbishop of Ravenna, said:"Mass is the presence of Christ and the music adds so much more when the harmony allows the mind to transcend the concrete to the divine."

But Cardinal Carlo Furno, grand master of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, said it was "better to have guitars on the altar and rock and roll Masses than empty churches". The use of modern music was a "sign of the vitality of the faith".

The argument is part of a wider debate about the Latin Mass, restricted in the Vatican II reforms of the 1960s because it was seen to be putting worshippers off going to Church.

The Pope believes that if Latin Masses are reintroduced, more Catholics will learn the words to the Gregorian chants that he advocates.

[franky]

Cymbal, Cymbals: a pecussive musical instrument. Two kinds of cymbals are mentioned in (Psalms 150:5) "loud cymbals" or castagnettes , and "high-sounding cymbals." The former consisted of our small plates of brass or of some other hard metal; two plates were attached to each hand of the performer, and were struck together to produce a great noise. The latter consisted of two larger plates, on held in each hand and struck together as an accompaniment to other instruments. Cymbals were used not only in the temple but for military purposes, and also by Hebrew women as a musical accompaniment to their national dances. Both kinds of cymbals are still common in the East

Symbols
1. Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible. See Synonyms at sign.
2. A printed or written sign used to represent an operation, element, quantity, quality, or relation, as in mathematics or music.
3. Psychology. An object or image that an individual unconsciously uses to represent repressed thoughts, feelings, or impulses: a phallic symbol.

From this site:

http://www.piney.com/Mu1Cor13.html

1 Corinthians 13:1-2 - Sounding Brass Tinkling Cymbals
Sounding brass and tinkling cymbals: Peter warned against casual treatment of Paul's writings; Paul warned against speaking in tongues or pagan prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5) and prophetesses. In 1 Corinthians he equates the sounding to the Familiar Spirit which we first saw after Israel's rejection of God resulted in the musical prophesiers from the Philistine high places. We will look at the classical Greek writers to understand the connection between echoing or ringing musical instruments and the prophesying, often by women, as a way to be able to speak the language from the gods or from angels.
We believe that Paul outlawed instrumental music as a worship device. He called them lifeless instruments and carnal weapons or instruments and associated them with the instruments of warfare. He as well defined away pagan styles of singing and removed external melody and put it in the heart.

[Prince Charles]

The guitar mass has to be one of the stoopidest ideas the liberals came up with after Vat2.

[bornacatholic]

This has all been an interesting discussion, but what I object to are those who have preferences that they try to impose on others as "holy" or God-given or the "right way" to do it.

*Then, you oppose Divinely-Constituted Authority.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

18 "Thou art Peter"... As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

*IOW, if the Pope says, "Crashing cymbals are out and chant is in," then who am I to oppose his authority?

I don't read anywhere in Scripture where I (or you) was given the Keys

[Coleus]

both guitars and organs are musical instruments, one contains strings the other pipes, what makes one more religious, respectful and worshipful?

[Larry Lucido]

Nothing there about drums, cymbals, guitars etc

Nothing there about half the stuff we have today. But we still have it.

[Larry Lucido]

You sound like a Protestant.

Psst. I'm a Protestant, so I say that as a compliment. :-)

[right-wingin_It]

It's not about the type of music...It's really about the fact that people shouldn't have to whore themselves out to get people to come to Mass. IMO, nothing appears more phony than a bunch of silver hairs (clergy or lay) trying to push rock concert masses on the youth.

Generally speaking, rock music (or at least the "quality" rock music), is deeply rooted in anti-establishment or anti-authority ideals. How stupid for the Church, or ANY insititution for that matter that relies on an authoritarian system, to adopt it.

It's you know, the common sense that our forefathers used to rely on to solve problems. It doesn't take someone with a Ph.D. to figure this stuff out!!!

[Salvation]

BTTT!

[ninenot]

Anytime you're ready, but call at least an hour before you arrive.

We'll have to clear a pathway--"Guest Welcome"--and all that.

[ninenot]

You don't seem to get the thrust of B-16/s comments. THE MODEL for sacred music (not the same as hymnody) is Gregorian Chant. No amount of 'we're better because we're now' claptrap or false logic can get around that fact. As to hymnody, it also has two purposes: to praise God and raise the minds/hearts of the faithful to God. (Unlike sacred music, hymnody does not necessarily utilize text of the Mass nor directly from the OT/NT.) But hymns MUST be 'sing-able.' Many of the newer ones are not--at least by the typical congregant. Without "singability," what's the point of the stupid hymn? ALL of this music must also fit into the general framework of "sacred time/sacred space" (to which we could add "sacred language", by the way--whether English or Latin.) Therefore, what music does NOT connote sacrality is music which is simply inappropriate for Mass. Recall that VatII's specific phrase was that 'music is pars integralis of the Mass---(an integral part.) Thus, the only excuse for using music which does NOT meet the general norms outlined above is that the Mass is not sacred. Maybe that's your take--but please, don't impose your silly and un-substantial views on us. Thanks!

[ninenot]

It's not whether they are "musical instruments."

The authorities in the Church actually DO have a right (and duty) to prescribe what is fitting for Mass. Protestants don't have that kind of structure; Catholics do. (Many US Catholics either will not admit that, or simply ignore it...)

Now some musical authorities simply ban the guitar outright. I wouldn't, if I have a vote--because a good 12-string accompaniment of say, "Silent Night" would be neat. Same-o with a 12-string accompaniment adapted to the Bach/Gounod "Ave Maria." These are examples. There are more out there.

But the guitar is tricky, because it has connotations; and one must work directly against those connotations to legitimize the use of that particular instrument.

By the way, Pius XII authorized "orchestral instruments" for the Mass in late 1955. Mozart and his patron/Bishop were NOT in conformance with Church rules, either.

[norge]

I don't think I'm the one who is imposing anything. In fact, I oppose imposing...which is the thrust of this thread.

PS...what is so "holy" about Gregorian Chants? Couldn't you say that religious hip-hop would be a modern day equivalent?

[norge]

By jove, I think you've got it. Scripture IS my authority, and if Scripture says I should praise God with loud cymbals, then I think I'm OK.

Now, the issue is preferences. I prefer NOT to worship with 16th Century music. If you do, fine with me, but don't impose your preferences on me...(see #112 above).

[bornacatholic]

You are not Catholic. The decisons taken by the Pope do not apply to you but you keep inserting yourself into the discussion and then claim your rights are being violated.

If you are anxious to be a victim at least join the Church you think offends you. Then, victimhood would make sens

[bornacatholic]

You are picking an argument with the wrong man. Ninenot is an expert in these matters. He has forgotten more than 99% of the Catholics in the world will ever know

He is an expert on Sacred Christian Music. He has read more books on that topic than the number of times Ted Kennedy has been in a bar.

Your question about Chant and hip-hop indicates to me you are somewhat out-matched on the subject :)

[ninenot]

You overstate both my knowledge and # of books read on the topic. If I were THAT far ahead of Kennedy's boozing frequency, I'd be smart enough to keep my mouth shut...

But thanks for the props; hope my posts are generally helpful.