Posted on 06/22/2006 7:36:40 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Don't you think they are directly related? Do they have anything to do with an individuals religious belief?
How would it be betrayal, if the paper was signed, and you swore allegiance...but did not believe it yourself? Wouldn't God know what was in your heart?
I have never said that I see the point in faith.
My beliefs are my property, too, since they are proper to me. If someone asks me to give them up, shouldn't I fight for what's mine? If you have a belief, but can't act upon it, you're not free. Which is why people die for their beliefs.
Jesus told us this would happen to us because of our beliefs in Him and that whoever would persevere to the end would be saved.
Why die for something you believe is the truth, when the guy next to you can say, no, that's not the truth, and you can't prove it is....
Jesus died for the truth. He proved He was the Truth through His death.
That is not to advocate we are on the same level, but that death is not always meaningless.
Would you say that a soldier fighting in defense of his country dies a meaningless death? I dare to venture that since you are on FR you would not have that mind set. Why is it any different when a Christian dies defending their beliefs?
Religious beliefs are not tangible, so I don't see any reason to die for them....you can always have them, and still stay alive. I think God will know what is in your heart, no matter what you may say.
Our beliefs on Jesus differ. A soldier fighting in defense of his country, is not fighting for his religious beliefs.
Do you try and come off as an ass intentionally?
Not really. God is.... whether we can prove it or not.
To an atheist, it's just an opinion, not a fact. In which case, according to the relativist, the atheist is equally correct.
God has his own reasons for denying all of us certainty with regard to His existence and nature. Those with faith ought not to feel superior.
Society seems better without homosexuality.
Since people have differing views, the opposite must be true as well.
Those wouldn't be in the majority so if it turns out their point of view is closer to the truth it wouldn't matter anyway.
You're unclear on the concept. The point is, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks if there's no universal truth.
I think the lack of clarity belongs to you. You have adopted the "either/or", position in the debate that so many dogmatists are fond of. The fact that we exist in the universe is evidence of some kind of universal truth. Its your strawman that assumes a position for others.
But I think we'd all die for certain principles.
But that's just dumb.
You should know.
We differ in our beliefs. How would denying your religion in order to stay alive...while in your heart you know it isn't true....reduce your ability to influence, I would think the opposite. It would show that whatever you say out loud to your oppresors, doesn't mean squat, what is important, is to stay alive and keep telling others to do the same, and eventually increase your numbers enough to overcome.
Again, this truth you speak of, is relative to the individuls, as not all people agree on what is the truth and it cannot be proven...it is a belief.
I think that persevering while alive, is much more effective.
Isn't martyrdom essentially suicide...taking the easy way out, instead of possibly spending the rest of your life holding to your beliefs, yet not being able to express them?
IT would cause scandal to those who followed him as a bishop. It could lead them to disbelief, and as a father to his congregation he would have misled them. Christ said it would be better to die than to lead a child to sin, I believe this was both a literal and metaphorical statement.
In the end, it boils down to whether or not you believe truth is. What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?
But why believe if you deny it, at least publicly, the first moment the going gets hard?
Isn't that most of Christ's followers did when they heard Him preach as recorded in the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John? Did He change His message in order to stay of their good side? No, He repeated what He had said, and then asked who else was going to leave.
How could it lead to disbelief...all he would have to do, is talk to them.
How do you know your soul would be lost? Doesn't suicide mean you lose your soul?
Why not? Why should a religious belief result in pain and death? Saying smething outloud doesn't change what's in your heart, does it?
Can I use a lifeline for this?
God has his own reasons for denying all of us certainty with regard to His existence and nature. Those with faith ought not to feel superior.
Who hijacked this thread again with their smug superiority? Seems to me it was the group insisting that dying for one's faith was stupid. If you want to start a thread on the wonders of "I'm right, you're right", we won't intrude.
Those wouldn't be in the majority so if it turns out their point of view is closer to the truth it wouldn't matter anyway. Ask Robert Smith of Maryland whether the 1% of homosexuals (and their agenda) in the United States have impacted his life.
You have adopted the "either/or", position in the debate that so many dogmatists are fond of.
Dogma is absolute, not negotiable.
The fact that we exist in the universe is evidence of some kind of universal truth.
You can't prove that we exist.
Correct. But our calling is to strive for excellence, not mediocrity. Someone who folds under duress isn't less acceptable to God, but someone who displays uncommon valor in the name of Christ is worthy of even greater glory in heaven. You can pass the course with a D-, but shouldn't we be striving for A's?
I don't think there can be understanding on why martyrdom (in the Christian sense) is desirable if you don't believe we're here for a higher purpose than collecting a Social Security check when we retire. No one is asking you to believe what we believe, but don't come here and demean our faith and expect everyone to "play nice".
Why not, and who says so, and why should I believe him?
Why is it "okay" to die for a person, but no "okay" to die for an abstract idea, concept, or belief? Doesn't that violate your own relativistic creed? Maybe some people hold adherence to an idea or belief as a higher good than loyalty to a person or country. Prove to me that they shouldn't.
Thousands have seen UFOs also.
70,000 people at one time, in one place?
Well for one thing, is this particular case he would never have had the opprotunity to speak to his people and explain his position. The Catholic church was persecuted by the most barbaric of means during Henry VIII and even worse during Elizabeth. He certainly knew this would be the result.
John Fisher refused to aknowledge a falsehood as true, he did the right thing. The fact that he lost his life because of it was not his choice, but the choice of those who chose to take it. He refused to lie and it cost him his life, this is not suicide since death was not his desired result.
To say something outloud which you do not believe is to lie. Lying is most clearly forbidden by God.
We have all heard the line in some romantic movie about "I would rather die than hurt you." Well, this is it in practice. Rather than violate one of the laws established by God, and insult truth in its very existence, this man chose to die.
He loved God more than he loved himself.
All lying is not forbidden by God anymore than all killing is not forbidden by God. Many lives were spared during the holocaust as a result of lying.
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