Posted on 06/19/2006 4:16:08 PM PDT by ChessMan
Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'
POSTED: 5:09 pm EDT June 19, 2006 UPDATED: 7:11 pm EDT June 19, 2006
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.
Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.
"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.
The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.
A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."
One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.
Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."
Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:
# "Lover, Beloved, Love" # "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier" # "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."
Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.
Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."
Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."
The Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other troublesome issues.
On Tuesday, the assembly will vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional "presbyteries" some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.
Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval of what they call "local option" would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."
To those folks, the PCUSA is no more than another front in the larger war.
... not to mention the hypocrisy of the feminists involved who think nothing is holier than abortion ...Or, looking at it another way ... my mother myself ...
Another church that is "post-Christian" and moving into the neopagan Goddess worshiping realm, I see...
Not moving, moved. The PCUSA currently tolerates (this newsbit has been on their official web page for years) the worship of the feminist goddess Sophia. This is the same woman who was recently tried and aquited for marrying lesbians (to each other).
Sayeth she: "I am stunned by a Presbyterian church so wrapped up now in the lordship of Jesus Christ that we forget how many ways, traditions and cultures God comes to us,"
If they worship the Goddess, then they are pagan. They ought to change the name of their church and be honest about it.
But instead, they want to be wiccan in Christian drag.
Here's an interesting tidbit I stumbled on reading up on this:
Hedden suggested that evangelicals learn about the differences by having conversations with Covenant Network members or similar independent Presbyterian groups that are working to end the denomination's prohibition against ordaining homosexuals as ministers, elders and deacons."Don't talk about homosexuality," she said. "Talk about the work and person of Jesus Christ."
She said the conversation continued like this:
Covenant Network board member: "You don't believe there were angels, do you?"
Hedden: "I said yes."
Covenant Network board member: "That's just poetry."
Hedden: "That's not poetry. That's description. I mentioned the earthquake and the temple curtain being torn. He looked at me again."
Covenant Network board member: "You really think that happened?" Hedden: "That's what really happened." She said she talked about the importance of the crucifixion.
Covenant Network board member: "Jesus really didn't know why Jesus was here until right after he was arrested. I think the people who wrote the gospel just put that in there later."
So, there's simple unbelief as one root problem.
You got that right Chappy!
Oh, I know. And I know it's not everyone. I just wish the believers and the non-believers would find separate venues. If wishes were fishes...
Once you give in on Jesus as who the Gospels say he is, then the whole thing gets weird.
Why be a Christian if you don't really believe that Jesus is Emmanuel, God-With-Us?
What the hell is wrong with these people?
Good grief....
***If any church could throw out the trendy stuff and psychobabble ... the pews would be full every Sunday.***
If only it were so. Our church is VERY traditional. We sing hymns, the preaching is sound, all of our officers are men. But because we live in liberal Seattle, we can only get about 130 people a Sunday. We are the only conservative church in 10 miles.
I wonder if they will go so far as to baptize members in the name of "the Mother, the Child, and the Womb." I would not be surprised...
I just wish the believers and the non-believers would find separate venues. If wishes were fishes...
Same deal as with that Episcopal Druid priest guy a year or so ago -- I susupect the outright pagan venues don't pay as well. :-)
(I suspect money has quite a bit to do with it actually. I remember listening to an interview recently with a conservative PCUSA guy. He explained his desire to stay and fight in terms of fidutiary (sp?) responsibility. People now dead have left funds and properties behind, with the purpose of supporting the real church, spreading the gospel, etc. He didn't want that to end up in the hand of the nutjobs and pagans.)
"They" are thinking correctly. "They" are non Christians who have for a long time been trying to takeover the denomination. "They" are proceeding as "they" have always planned to.
"We" Christians in the denomination are trying to stop them from doing their devilish work. It has been difficult because so many Christians have chosen to run instead of fight. That leaves fewer of us to stand up to "them".
In the end, whatever God wants will occur. He is in charge.
Such has always been a difficult point for those conservatives who seek to prevent their church from descending into apostasy. At what point does your conscience compel you to abandon a church which has forsaken the Truth rather than attempt to take it back? It is indeed unfortunate that in this day and age it's all to easy to choose the former, calling it "conscience" when it is really convenience.
I tend to want to stand as Machen did...fighting to the last until they kick me out.
Designer deities!!
Kewl..........you get to address the deity with the name of your choice.
How enlightened and great leap forward down the road to personalized, subjective religion.
Better start collecting Bibles....they'll be changing the text of the scriptures next....
It seems like the people in charge of the major Protestant sects have completely left the reservation.
Can't we just call them "Phoebe, Chandler, and Joey"?
Oh, I suspect the short-term benefits are probably gratifying, but the long-term prospects for employment are just hellish.
I am not looking for doctrinal fights with any of you over this, but this is something that honestly perplexes me.
If I were asked to formulate the Trinity in the feminine gender (as some kind of bizarre spiritual exercise), I would go for "mother, daughter, love" or "mother, daughter, gift". I understand "child" in lieu of the feminine "daughter" as I'd still have the masculinity of Jesus Christ to account for. I completely don't understand "womb" as a metaphore for the Holy Ghost:
- The Holy Ghost proceeds from the father (John 15:20);
- The Holy Ghost is breathed by Christ (John 20:22).
Does womb proceed from the Mother or breathed by the Child?
The womb signifies one person in the scripture and one person alone, and that is Mary.
Now, I completely understand that this has nothing to do with historical, traditional, scriptural Presbyterianism. But do you have any insight into what these people were thinking as they removed the Holy Spirit from the Trinity and put Mary into the Trinity?
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