Posted on 06/06/2006 11:58:40 AM PDT by dukeman
LETTERS OF HEROD AND PILATE, CONNECTING ROMAN HISTORY with THE Death OF CHRIST AT JERUSALEM.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/pilate.htm
You'll notice Dr. Craig didn't bring up Joshephus. And for very good reason. I suspect you're aware that those references to Christ by Josephus are strongly considered to be interpolations.
James appears to have been a pious Jewish believer. Paul’s letter to the Galatians condemns legalistic men claiming affiliation with James who were teaching the churches in Galatia that gentile believers had to keep the Jewish law in addition to putting their faith in Jesus. Galatians 2:12-13
We don’t have the same wealth of information about the life of James that we have for Paul, but we have enough information to conclude that James became a convert to Christianity because he believed the risen Jesus appeared to him: (1) Early creed (within 5 years of the crucifixion)reports Jesus' resurrection appearance to James (1 Cor. 15;7) and (2) Paul and Acts identify James as a leader in the Church (Gal. 1:19; Acts 15:12-21).
James was executed as a law breaker. He had a reputation for keeping the Jewish law, so it would seem likely that the Law had to relate to his Christological allegiances and a charge of blasphemy. This would fit the fact that he was stoned, which was the penalty for such a crime, and parallels how Stephen was martyred.
The personal appearance of Jesus to his skeptical brother James is part of the church’s earliest tradition, as reported by Paul in 1 Corinthians.
With James, we have a case of a skeptic converting to Christianity based on what he perceived was a personal appearance by the risen Jesus. As with Paul, we must ask the question: What happened to cause James to have such a conviction and hold fast to it unto death?
(**** I suspect you're aware that those references to Christ by Josephus are strongly considered to be interpolations.***
Only in the minds of unbelievers. If you will check, Origen (185-232Ad)wrote of how Josephus talked of Christ in his histories. Origen lived when the libraries were still under the control of Pagan Rome, and schrolls are not that easy to change without notice.
Only in the mind of believers. Origen, now there's an independent source. lol.
On page #5 under fact #2 in the second paragraph reference is made to "Patriarchal Jewish Society" and the Histories of Josephus.
In patriarchal Jewish society the testimony of women was not highly regarded. In fact, the Jewish historian Josephus says that women weren’t even permitted to serve as witnesses in a Jewish court of law.
Are you serious? He's making a point about women in court. Which by the way isn't a passage suspected to be interpolated. I guess I should have been more specific and said that Craig didn't use any of Josephus' writings regarding Christ. Dang, really diggin' deep for the "gotcha's" tonight. :-)
This is very true....in fact all of the brothers of Jesus were highly skeptical of him and his ministry. One of my favorite examples is how his own brothers tried to get him killed by suggesting he go to the feast in Judea where they knew the Jews were waiting to kill him. Why?....because they did not believe in him. [John 7:1-5]
Evidently his brothers were converted after the resurrection as they were not present at the crucifixion. Earlier they had accused him of being insane. [Mark 3:21] Indeed, Jesus had even publicly insulted his family because of their mistreatment of him. [Matthew 12:46-50]
***Only in the mind of believers. Origen, now there's an independent source. lol.***
No, you have it wrong. the independent source is Josephus. His books were still under the control of Pagan Rome.
Origen merely quoted from the books Josephus' references to Christ, found at the public libraries of the time.
This was about 200 years before Constantine became emperor and the libraries came under Christian control.
Origen merely quoted from the books Josephus' references to Christ, found at the public libraries of the time.
Pagan Rome controlled them so much they were found in a public library. Origen went to the library, memorized the passages and then sat down in his office and quoted Josephus. Only a believer can believe that.
Could you expostulate further?
***Pagan Rome controlled them so much they were found in a public library. Origen went to the library, memorized the passages and then sat down in his office and quoted Josephus. Only a believer can believe that.***
So, precisely where did Oregin get his quotes from Josephus? If the scrolls were not changed till sometime after Constantine did Oregin foresee the changes 200 years in the future?
I wasn't there.
If the scrolls were not changed till sometime after Constantine did Oregin foresee the changes 200 years in the future?
I don't accept the premise that the scrolls weren't changed til after Constantine. Pre-Constantine proto-orthodoxy existed. Hello.
I see you're hard at work to live down to your screen name. You folks in Colorado have a mission of same it would appear lately. The presence of Ward do that to you or is it the thin air in the Rockies?
Discuss the issues all you want but do NOT make it personal.
I'l step back up on the porch and just grin at the gotcha efforts ...
***I don't accept the premise that the scrolls weren't changed til after Constantine. Pre-Constantine proto-orthodoxy existed. Hello.***
So, did someone sneak into all the Roman libraries and change the scrolls? What type of eraser would be used for that type ink? did they shift the rest of the words to make room for these "interpolations" or did they just try to squeeze the new words in between the lines or margins? They din't have word wrap at that time.
To understand the problem take a finely written modern book and squeeze in some new text without leaving evidence of tampering. It can't be done without completely re-writing or resetting by shifting the remainder of the type.
I didn't think it necessary, but why doesn't anyone question the resurrection, from the standpoint, that it is biologically impossible for man to come back from the dead?
This is one of the main reasons, that I have difficulty with Christianity. I understand people believing, and wanting to believe, but I don't believe it is possible.
The main passage being discussed from Jewish Antiquities, finished about 93 or 94 A.D., is known as the Testimonium and reads:
“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. “ (Italics added)
(Antiquities, XVIII, 33) a/k/a The Testimonium.
The consensus of serious scholars is that the italicized language was interpolated at some later time by a Christian scribe intent on helping the cause. The language appears almost "cut & pasted" into the overall text.
John P. Meier in "The Testimonium: Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible", Bible Review June, 1991 wrote:
"Read the Testimonium without the italicized passages and you will see that the flow of thought is clear. Josephus calls Jesus by the generic title 'wise man'. He then proceeds to 'unpack' that generic designation with two of its main components in the Greco-Roman world: miracle working and effective teaching. This double display of 'wisdon' wins Jesus a large following among both Jews and gentiles and presumably it is this huge success that moves the leading men to accuse Jesus before Pilate. Despite Jesus' shameful death on the cross, his earlier adherents do not give up their loyalty to him and so (note that the transition is much better without the reference to the resurrection in the deleted passage) the tribe of Christians has not yet died out."
The Testimonium is useful for rebutting the arguments of some that Jesus never existed and never died on the cross, but a Christian loses credibility by relying on it alone as historical proof that Jesus is the Christ. It is part of the overall collection of historical data which cannot be adequately explained away by skeptics.
The reference to James, the brother of Jesus, in Josephus' Antiquities XX is accepted as authentic by the majority of serious scholars. Among the reasons for accepting the authenticity of of this passage are: (1) a Christian editor would have used complimentary language to describe James and more laudatory language referring to Jesus; (2) The point of Josephus is that Ananus was deposed because he instigated illegal executions of several enemies, including James. However, James is mentioned simply as an example. If a Christian editor was responsible for the inclusion of James we would expect more information to be provided; (3) Josephus' account differs from other Christian accounts of the death of James and, therefore, appears to be independent of Christian tradition (see Clement of Alexandria and Hegesippus in Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2.23).
Let me add that I'm a believer in Jesus Christ as the risen Lord and the Holy Spirit Himself has born witness to me that this is true. Romans 8:16 The external, historical evidence confirms the truth all believers receive from God's written revelation. As you can see on this thread, there are some believers who see no value in examining this historical data. That's fine. I find this historical data useful in reaching certain types of skeptics, my own brothers and my nephews and nieces included.
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