Posted on 06/06/2006 11:58:40 AM PDT by dukeman
A Debate between
William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman
On March 28, 2006, Dr. Craig, Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California, and Dr. Ehrman, James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, debated the status of the Christian claim to Jesus' resurrection from the perspective of historical data. The debate was sponsored by the Center for Religion, Ethics and Culture and the Campus Christian Fellowship.
As LDS when we read things like this that questions the evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, it is so nice to have received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is also another Testament of Jesus Christ!
Don't forget Foxe's Book of Martyrs!
***I never said he was one of the twelve. I said he was an Apostle......and called himself as such. He was commissioned to go further than just the Gentiles. Acts 9:15 says he is chosen by the Lord to carry His name before the Gentiles and their Kings and before the people of Israel. This would cover the Jews, the other eleven tribes, and just about everyone else.***
But what about THIS...
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
If this is not deciding who would go to the Jews and who would go to the gentiles then what is it. Were they in violation of their commissions?
Paul did refer to himself as THE APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES.
As or the choosing of Matthias...
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
NOW LOOK AT THIS BELOW AND TELL ME IF MATTHIAS WAS CHOSEN BY MEN.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two THOU HAST CHOSEN,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
If people can use the word faith differently, doesn't that make it relative?
No. It means that we have to define our terms when we speak.
And that definition will not be relative to the one that defines it?
You know, you seem to put words in my posts that I am not saying. You did it in post #17 and now you are doing it again.
I never said that there was no distinction in the separate commissions to Peter and Paul. Peter was instructed, along with the other twelve, to go only to the house of Israel......the circumcised. [Matthew 10:5-6]
Paul, on the other hand, was given the authority over both Israelite and Gentile. [Acts 9:15]
In other words, Paul was allowed free reign on whom he preached to and indeed did go just about anywhere unless commanded by the Holy Spirit not to go there. Example???? Acts 16:6-8. They could not go Bithynia because the Holy Spirit would not allow them entry. Why???? That was one of the areas that Peter was preaching to. [1 Peter 1:1] These folks were not Gentiles....they were Israelites (foreknowledge of God) and as such, circumcised and the responsibility of Peter and the other twelve.
In other examples Paul preaches to the circumcised also...throughout the New Testament. I'm sure you don't need me to quote chapter and verse....but I will.
Peter was to preach.... and feed the lost sheep of Israel [John 21:15-17] [Matthew 10:5-6] and this is why the scriptures never show, or speak of him in Rome.
The debate over His existence is a matter for historians, this new debate has nothing to do with history, but instead is just a ruse to discredit Christianity and promote their own atheism.
Well, look at it this way.
Why would I want to look at it the way bigots look at it?
Looking for an independant source not the NT. I'd also be interested to see the records of those rulers, can you provide a link?
What better proof does one need than that God has rejected a people called out of Egypt for a people that believes in him!
***
This reveal that some have little knowledge who the first Christians were!
It is amazing some people learn religion from others how to faultfind in the mean time the distraction cause them to stumble and unable to connect the dots and learn the trail and pattern of the children of the Lord!
The first Christians were from the trible of Judah!
Nine times out of ten Israel is where you came from!
Josephus was a very respected first century, Jewish historian. In a number of places in his works he refers to to the early Christian movement and its followers. I have listed a few. Please bear in mind that Josephus is still considered today a Jew....not a Christian. His history, of course, would not be considered tainted, or in the slightest pro Christian.
Antiquities XVIII Chapter III, Paragraph 3. Josephus says that Jesus was the Christ, says he was crucified by Pilate, appeared alive the third day and all had been foretold by prophecy.
Antiquities XVIII Chapter V, Paragraph 2. Josephus speaks of John the Baptist and his death by Herod. It gives other reasons for his death but we still know from scripture why John was placed in this position.
Antiquities XX Chapter XI, Paragraph 1. Josephus speaks of Albinus, Procurator of Judea delivering up James, the brother of Jesus, and others for stoning because of lawbreaking.
Josephus is not considered scripture....but a very reliable first century historical source.
***You know, you seem to put words in my posts that I am not saying. You did it in post #17 and now you are doing it again. ***
Let's see, quoting from YOUR post #20, in MY post # 23, then quoting from the BIBLE is putting words in your mouth.
The following are MY words from post #23.
Those marked with a *** in # 23 are YOUR words.
All the rest in #23 are direct quotes from the Bible.
So, how is that putting words in your mouth.
My words from #23...
"But what about THIS..."
"Paul did refer to himself as THE APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES."
"As or the choosing of Matthias... "
"NOW LOOK AT THIS BELOW AND TELL ME IF MATTHIAS WAS CHOSEN BY MEN."
***This reveal that some have little knowledge who the first Christians were! ***
Go back and read Paul's book of HEBREWS.
You will find enough inferrences to Moses in the desert and how the people "drew back" and as a result dyed in the desert so a new generation could go into the land.
Very good discussions in this thread. Am impressed that everyone seems to know their Bible...
NOW LOOK AT THIS BELOW AND TELL ME IF MATTHIAS WAS CHOSEN BY MEN.Game, set, match. Bravo.Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two THOU HAST CHOSEN,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I know that but so many think all of Israel of Judah which that is not there were many tribes.
Today the bulk of Christianity is made up from the Children of Israel of the many tribes of Israel!
If you are Spanish decent you are one of tribes of Israel most likely Manasseh!
Why isn't it debated from the perspective of being biologically impossible?
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