Posted on 06/03/2006 9:22:46 AM PDT by bornacatholic
That the the" left wing" of the Catholic Church is somehow more liberal than any other bunch of churchmen. Even the Cardinal of Los Angeles is not as liberal
as the recently elected head of the ECUSA in California. If you are talking aboiut postures toward Israel, one of the most pro-Arab cardinals just got his wings-clipped.
"Completing a five-day fact finding mission throughout Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, a group of eleven Presbyterian Church (USA) leaders announced on Monday that the Church's current policy to divest its $7 billion pension fund against the State of Israel is flawed. They called on the PCUSA's over 500 voting commissioners to rescind the policy at its upcoming General Assembly June 15-22, 2006 in Birmingham, Alabama, and to replace it with a positive strategy to bring about genuine peace and justice for Palestinians and Israelis alike. "While adoption of the divestment policy in 2004 created an important focus on the struggle for achieving a solution to the Middle East conflict, it is now time to put aside this one-sided, negative and counter-productive policy that threatens to cause great harm to both Israel and the Palestinians while creating unnecessary polarization within our own denomination," stated NCLCI Executive Committee member Dr. John H. Cushman who is Pastor of the Presbyterian Church of the Roses in Santa Rosa, California..."
This website contains information about the money being spent by the Presbyterian Church USA in their promotion of the anti-Israel agenda.
http://concernedpresbyterians.net/
Well, Alex, since, e.g., Prebyterians reject apostolic succession, reject the idea of the priesthood per se, and reject transubstantiation or anything close to it, there's really not much chance of a Presbyterian Eucharist being a valid Catholic sacrament. Sacramental validity requires a valid minister, valid matter (bread made from wheat only, wine mixed with water), valid "form" (the words that are said, and valid intent (the intent to do what the Catholic church does). Unless your Presbyterian minister is a former Catholic or Orthodox (or perhaps Anglican) priest, he's not a validly ordained minister. He probably doesn't have a valid intent, either.
sanctification will never occur, and the Protestant, if he is saved at all, will have to undergo a much longer period of time in Purgatory, to be purged of the effects of sin, than the Catholic will. Do I understand all this right?
Not exactly. You have to remember that God is not bound by the sacraments, in the sense that he is free to save people apart from them. (He is bound by them in the sense that they bind him as oaths -- that what the word "sacrament" means -- but that has nothing to do with what he chooses in regard to someone who doesn't receive them, only with the obligation he imposes on himself with regard to those who do.)
In general, I think it's a good idea to call people to repentance, conversion, and Catholic faith. It's a bad idea to speculate about what happens to them if they don't hear that call, or if they hear it and don't take it to heart. That's not really our problem, after all; it's between them and God.
That's pretty much how I understood the Catholic doctrine on the subject - thank you for confirming it for me. Please note that I'm not trying to debate it (at least not at this time), I'm trying to make sure that I, and the other lurkers, understand it in comparison to Protestant doctrine on the same subject.
You have to remember that God is not bound by the sacraments, in the sense that he is free to save people apart from them. (He is bound by them in the sense that they bind him as oaths...)
Just to confirm what I'm reading here - you're saying God saves by the sacraments, i.e. the (valid) Eucharistic wafer, through transubstantiation (making it Christ's flesh, sacrificed on our behalf) becomes the vehicle/mechanism by which salvation in whole or part is communicated to the believer?
It's a bad idea to speculate about what happens to them if they don't hear that call, or if they hear it and don't take it to heart. That's not really our problem, after all; it's between them and God.
I can more-or-less agree here - speculation can only go so far, stacking "what ifs" on top of "what ifs". What I was hoping to discover is whether this particular belief - salvation outside the Mother Church - is itself a "what if" or whether the Church has ever proclaimed someone a saint who was outside of the Church (since, as I understand Catholic doctrine, of all believers, only saints are held to be assuredly in the presence of God after death).
Interesting that today is the memorial of Charles Lwanga and the other martyrs in Uganda between 1885 and 1887. Not all of them were Catholic, I believe the first was the Anglican bishop.
you win
One of my favorite memorials. The account of their deaths is stunning. Similar to the martyrs at Nagasaki running to their crosses. It seems obvious, to the believer anyway, that there is something other than ordinary human behavior involved.
What's the fuss? Lots of people don't believe that the Israeli's are examplars of truth and justice or models of decency. Are all Presby's expected to mirror the preferred image?
Interesting - am I to understand that these Anglicans were actually canonized (is that the verb form of being declared a saint?) by Pope Paul VI?
I don't think Israelis carry AK47s ... but the Islamofascists world-wide do.
I believe that's correct. They were formally recognized as martyrs, as such they gave the 'supreme witness', united with Christ:
2473 Martyrdom is the supreme witness given to the truth of the faith: it means bearing witness even unto death. The martyr bears witness to Christ who died and rose, to whom he is united by charity. He bears witness to the truth of the faith and of Christian doctrine. He endures death through an act of fortitude.
I believe the Anglican bishop was held for a month before he was executed. He had plenty of time to renounce his faith. I think they all had opportunities to renounce their faith.
Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved
*You seem to have a pretty good understanding of what we believe.
As to the other question about odds, who knows? I'd not be willing to bet. I'll post a link to a gentleman who summarises the arguement far better than I can
Thanks, brother
Virgin and martyr, d. at Rome in the third century. The old Itineraries to the graves of the Roman martyrs, after giving the place of burial on the Via Nomentana of St. Agnes, speak of St. Emerentiana. Over the grave of St. Emerentiana a church was built which, according to the Itineraries, was near the church erected over the place of burial of St. Agnes, and somewhat farther from the city wall. In reality Emerentiana was interred in the coemeterium majus located in this vicinity not far from the coemeterium Agnetis. Armellini believed that he had found the original burial chamber of St. Emerentiana in the former coemeterium. According to the legend of St. Agnes Emerentiana was her foster-sister. Some days after the burial of St. Agnes Emerentiana, who was still a catechumen, went to the grave to pray, and while praying she was suddenly attacked by the pagans and killed with stones. Her feast is kept on 23 January. In the "Martyrologium Hieronymianum" she is mentioned under 16 September, with the statement: In coemeterio maiore. She is represented with stones in her lap, also with a palm or lily.
"Catechumen," in the early Church, was the name applied to one who had not yet been initiated into the sacred mysteries, but was undergoing a course of preparation for that purpose. The word occurs in Gal. vi, 6: "Let him that is instructed in the word, [ho katechoumenos, is qui catechizatur] communicate to him that instructeth him [to katechounti, ei qui catechizat] in all good things." Other parts of the verb katicksein occur in I Cor., xiv, 19; Luke, i, 4; Acts, xviii, 24.
Pretty close. Let me adjust or amplify slightly. "God saves by the sacraments" in the sense that the sacraments are the instrumental cause of our salvation. The meritorious cause is Christ's death.
If I gave you a monetary gift in the form of a check, that check would the instrumental cause of your increase in wealth. The meritorious cause would be my generosity. Notice that nothing implies that I can't give someone else money or tangible wealth without writing them a check; I could use a different instrumental cause.
Sacraments confer sanctifying grace on those who put no obstacle in their way. Sanctifying grace is the indwelling created participation in the divine life of the most Blessed Trinity. It's a sine qua non for salvation, such that you can call it "salvation" itself if you wish.
What I was hoping to discover is whether this particular belief - salvation outside the Mother Church - is itself a "what if" or whether the Church has ever proclaimed someone a saint who was outside of the Church
No, she hasn't.
(since, as I understand Catholic doctrine, of all believers, only saints are held to be assuredly in the presence of God after death)
This isn't correct, if by "saints" you mean "canonized saints". Canonized saints are those Catholics who are recognized (infallibly) by the Church as being in heaven, and are held up to the faithful as examples of heroic virtue to be emulated.
Everyone in heaven is a saint, but there are certainly some and probably very, very many in heaven who are not canonized saints, and never will be. They are the saints whom we commemorate on November 1, the Solemnity of All Saints.
The Jimmy Akin article bornacatholic linked to in #36 is a very good, if somewhat long, explanation of the issues.
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