I mean, he even cures AIDS!
Posted on 05/26/2006 10:07:14 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Who is David Cloud, one may ask? He is the visible leader of Way of Life Ministries, a literature and (ostensibly) preaching ministry for Independent, Fundamental, KJV-only Baptists. OK, so that's not very important, but my relationship with David Cloud is long and complex. The reason I'm bothering to address him at all might not be readily apparent to any thinking individual, since he's mostly irrelevant to almost everybody on the face of the earth, but it will become apparent as I continue. Allow me to recount my history with David Cloud.
When I first became a Christian, way back in 1994, I reacted very bitterly to my liberal United Church of Canada upbringing by swinging very far the other way, spiritually. I was attending a Fellowship Baptist Church, and was exposed to the fundamentalist spirituality by some of the older folks there. Now, let me give them a lot of credit: they genuinely loved me, nurtured me, and were interested in me when the younger folks and staff didn't care about me enough to say "hi". Anyhow, I soon fell sway to the KJV-only separatistic fundamentalist viewpoint.
When I went off to Wilfrid Laurier University in 1996, I came in contact by way of internet access with David Cloud and his ministry. I signed up for his daily email rants and loved it; here was a guy standing ferociously against everybody who disagreed with him, no matter how small the disagreement. Now, I didn't see it that way at the time, but that's essentially what he does. To David Cloud, Billy Graham is a compromiser of the Christian faith; to David Cloud, Jerry Falwell is a liberal compromiser of fundamentalism; to David Cloud, the Sword of the Lord isn't loud enough in its promotion of the KJV; to David Cloud, Focus on the Family is an anti-Christian organization. I bought several of his books, and heard him preach live in London, ON in a Baptist church just on the outskirts of town that serves as his Canadian base of operations.
Anyhow, for the next four years or so I continued along the path of fundamentalistic, separatistic thinking. A host of mistakes along the path, a very meaningful reconsideration of the nature of the grace of God (yes, it really is "unmerited"), a tiring of the constant fighting against every little point of disagreement, and finally, a return to University, where I had to quickly learn I didn't have things as figured out as I thought I did led me to reject the fundamentalistic militancy, if not all the points of theology. I still tuned in to David Cloud, to see what or who provoked his near-uncontrollable rage that week, and in spite of the considerable agreements I had with him, found myself getting consistently turned off by his preaching. Basically, I realized how simplistic his argumentation was, how many logical fallacies he employs in his argumentation (his personal favourite: argumentum ad hominem ), how he never really engages his opponent's position or shows the slightest bit of respect for people who disagree with him, and basically is an ignoramus who believes a harsh, loud voice is a good substitute for shallow thinking, non-existant research and inept exegesis.
By following this man's example, I became a hard, bitter, judgmental, arrogant person. I will not state that is the kind of person David Cloud himself is, because it's not my place to say yea or nay to that. He certainly comes across that way, but I can easily relate to a guy who comes across a little differently than he'd like to. Anyhow, I still keep up with what's he's saying, sometimes just for the humour, sometimes looking for a little wheat in a veritable sea of chaff. I am usually disappointed: this man's goal in life is to produce "expos?s" of people that are meaningful to him and his handful of devoted followers, and to pretty much nobody else. He is rude and disrespectful in his manner to others, and yet when challenged to justify his attacks on people - such as James White did - he absolutely refuses to be held accountable for the things he writes. And that has grated on me to the point where, in my own small way, I want to respond to him.
I have said that this man's example was spiritual poison to me, and I stand by that: at this point, I want to answer a few choice selections of David Cloud's oeuvre in the next following posts.
While David Cloud's name may be an unknown to Christians outside of Fundamental, Independent Baptist circles, Cloud's writings have been a mainstay on Free Republic for years. In recent weeks we've had large number of articles posted, either written by David Cloud or hosted on Cloud's website http://www.wayoflife.org. Matching up the Religion Board archives to his website, I found that his articles have been posted here at one time or another (I was surprised to find that he's even taken on the VeggieTales video series: Beware The VeggieTales!). While a great deal is said and written by David Cloud, I was hard-pressed to find anything about David Cloud not penned by the man himself. I thought that an examination of the man's beliefs might be welcomed.
This blog entry is part of a fourteen-article series on Cloud, written by an Open Brethern student named Blake Kennedy. You can find all fourteen of Kennedy's blog entries on Cloud (including this one) here:
Evil veggie bump.
Yeah, David Cloud isn't a big fan of Catholics either.
But, he does live in Nepal.
I mean, he even cures AIDS!
The last time this subject was brought up, it caused quite a ruckus.
Someday, I may yet learn that some pots are best left unstirred.
AFAIK there has never been a thread on this before. The subject of this thread is the author of that thread (and several others). You & I were both on that thread early on, asking "who is David Cloud, and what does he believe" - this is an attempt to provide some answers to that question.
You're correct.
Don't worry, I won't blow your cover, even though I'm involved with Opus Dei and (according to FR) Opus Dei and the Jesuits are enemies.
Now if you were both an undercover Jesuit and a member of the Knights of Columbus, you'd be toast, buddy ...
;-) for the humor-impaired
Campion, trust me on this - I'd sign up for Opus Dei long before I'd listen to the campus Jesuit ROTC recruiters. Even though I'm told that the Jesuit Midget Assassins get cooler cars :D
By following this man's example, I became a hard, bitter, judgmental, arrogant person!
sounds like some we heard from?
I couldn't say, myself. I know lots of "hard, bitter, judgmental, arrogant persons" (myself included), and they became that way for all sorts of reasons. Being overly "judgmental" against someone's (false?) doctrine in and of itself can't be a sign of hardheartedness. If that were so, Joseph Smith himself would IMO be the most guilty, for proclaiming that all of the churches of his day - Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox - were "all wrong", their creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, etc) "were an abomination" in God's sight, and that all the learned men, preachers and teachers within Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy "were all corrupt." I doubt that even David Cloud has made such a wide and broad condemnation of any group, let alone all of them. So judgmentalism itself can't be the "cause" for hardheartedness. Holding to false doctrine, IMO, might be a symptom however of a larger problem. If Cloud's doctrine (or Smith's, to be fair) were true, I could understand the "judgmentalism" because either would be correctly diagnosing someone else's spiritual problems.
If what I gather about David Cloud's overall theology is true, I'd summarize his claims as saying the following:
1) salvation is conditional on holding to very precise and narrow theological definitions, on topics both major and minor, specifically covering all 31,373 verses found in the KJV, comprehensively speaking.2) As part of the Fundamental, Independent Baptist movement, the historic Christian creeds and confessions of orthodox Christianity are suspect at best, and are neither professed, nor taught, nor trusted by that movement. Lacking a formal creed, said movement willfully sequesters itself from doctrinal investigation and correction by outsiders.
3) Salvation is conditional and can be lost for numerous reasons - holding to a false doctrine (see point #1) being of them. Since point #2 is also held, one way to bring a "fallen" brother back into the fold is to submit him to a 31,373-verse examination and demand immediate repentance for any misunderstandings. The shorter (preferred) method is to submit all thinking, in advance (without verifying an actual stance for all 31,373 verses) to someone such as David Cloud. Let David Cloud do your thinking for you, since he hold the right doctrine for all 31,373 verses already!
If that were so, Joseph Smith himself would IMO be the most guilty, for proclaiming that all of the churches of his day - Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox - were "all wrong", their creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, etc) "were an abomination" in God's sight, and that all the learned men, preachers and teachers within Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy "were all corrupt."
Now there you do again picking on Joseph Smith!
AM, Joseph Smith did not make the Statement, the Lord did! And Joseph explain why the Lord told him not to join none of thoes Orthodox Church's
I pray a day will come soon that we may have a discussion of what really did take place during the end of The Early Christians when and how the last apostles was killed off or died and the Priesthood was with drawn from the earth!
When one is a seeker of truth and not entrench "In the Traditions of Men", than I trust you will understand why the Lord told Joseph those things!
There are writing of Joseph after he received that revelation, he did search out what the Lord met by that, and Joseph Smith admired so many in Fox's Book of Martyrs, he could see the struggles so many inspired men who had tried to hold on to the word of God!
And as I study the history which I am reading now Early Christians In Disarray more and more has surfaced, we can know what was going on at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ was on earth, and establish His Priesthood and full filled his mission here, even in the midst of his work the opposition was raging a spiritual war!
After the crucifixion and the ascension the spiritual war continue until every last apostle was done away with!
It is silly to think a Book of sacred scriptures would not be revised and edited!
It has happen in the pass in the OT that is why those warning were in those manuscripts...
Do not add nor subtract, Do not add or take away etc!
Now think what was Moses doing when he spoke to Lord much more than the Ten Commandments he was receiving the word of the Lord. The first 5 books of the OT was to be a recap of all the events on earth until the time of Moses!
To continues to believe and defend that a Scared Book of the Lord was not edit and revised is being in denial!
That is all right people can believe what they want, but the work of the Lord will continue to unfold and those who have eyes will see and those who have ears will hear and know their Master voice!
Be of Good Cheer!
I would like to say yet there differences,I always thought these men of God were earnest and sincereI have listen through the years and their words have become diluted or wacky!
But that is not the way that they were in the 80's they were conservatives and also were in many ways seemed tempered!
Something has happen to them and something had happen to Ronald Reagan and Charles Heston!
These men were a thron in the side of the extreme left and they wanted to shut them up!
It was an interesting book about the Sov. Union ability in Psychotronic War Fare!(Mind Control Over America!)
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The Mind Has No Firewall By TIMOTHY L. THOMAS
So when you see changes taking place don't always think it is Old age or Health, Evil should also be in the Consideration!
Good point!
It's true, sadly. :-( (Disclaimer: I was rejected from the Jesuit Midget Assassin Formation Program due to excessive height. Their interest in me dried up once it became clear I was well over three feet tall.)
I can't believe they'd stoop that low....
Hello I know this article is very old now but I am try to find the other 14 articles by Blake Kennedy. The link to his blog says it is by invite only.
Thanks for any help.
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