| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/30/2006 8:48:10 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Toxic thread turned personal. |
Posted on 04/27/2006 6:55:52 PM PDT by Full Court
Thank you for the post, very worthwhile I stumbled across this argument yesterday, so in keeping with a topic within the post (You're judgmental!) it is passed along. I recognize that how I dress will cause others to form opinion of me.
*****
"Jesus tells us not to judge." ... one must make a distinction between internal and external judgment. When Our Lord says: "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matthew 1:7/DRV), His dictum refers to one man's judgment of another man's internal state of soul. Only God can see the internal disposition: was the external action done out of good or ill, out of friendship or fear, etc.? Man can see only the external result, not the internal intention.
On the other hand, we must make external judgments. We do this every day. A parent judges his child's action unacceptable and punishes him. A judge or jury judges a criminal guilty. We judge that murder is wrong, that adultery is wrong, that theft is wrong. These are external judgments that we must make by God's authority. Otherwise, the commonweal falls. We must judge the external action -- we don't want criminals walking around because they cannot be judged! God gives us that authority, as He established the State with its due authority: "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" (Matthew 22:21/DRV).
This "judge not" is a typical ploy of the Modernists. It's a way of saying that we cannot judge anyone else's morals. We can't say that adultery is wrong, or homosexuality, or theft. Of course, not even the Modernists really believe this. They don't advocate the dismissal of law-courts. They don't advocate the firing of judges. They don't advocate letting murderers, thieves, and rapists go free with impunity. Obviously, even for them, external judgment is just and a necessity. They only judge differently, not in accordance with God's law.
So what does this "judge not" dictum really mean? St. John the Apostle clarifies it for us: "Judge not according to the appearance: but judge just judgment" (John 7:24/DRV). In other words, it is not judgment itself that is condemned, but unjust judgment. Catholic teaching is that just judgment is proper when it pertains to external judgment. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to judge an external act such as murder, to consign the murderer to the courts, and to execute the murderer if found guilty.
What we cannot do, as only God can do that, is judge the internal disposition. Perhaps the murderer was not compos mentis when he committed the murder. Courts can try to infer from external actions what might have been the internal motive, just as a priest can try to infer the culpability of a penitent, but only God knows the true heart as a certainty.
So, when someone gives you that "judge not" quotation to suborn every kind of moral and doctrinal perversion, tell them to go down to the courthouse, dismiss the judges and juries, and lock the doors! "Moral relativism is not only an intellectually bankrupt idea; its real-life consequences can be deadly." Otherwise, we would have no justice in this world -- just anarchy.
That is sad. Pray for her, and be her example. All we can do sometimes is to plant the seeds and let the Lord raise the harvest.
Thanks. I give God the glory. I have no doubt he wanted my wife and I to meet each other. The events leading up to our meeting, and the following first date about 20 hrs later, is a true romance tale that I will have to share sometime. Too many coincidences, and humorous aspects as well.
Gotta go, an unexpected day off means serious reductions to the honey-do list. (a nice nap is not on it, either)
:-/
Personally, I see nothing wrong with Christian heavy metal, as long as it is enjoyable. Generally I don't listen to Christian music because it's not usually well done.
Actually, to get to the root of my feeling about music - I feel that music is an expression of God even when the musician doesn't intend or understand it that way. I think melody and song are divinely inspired. I wouldn't lump all music into this category, but surely some of us have heard a song that on the surface may be unchristian, but the sound of it moves you on a spiritual level.
But I'm getting away from the topic at hand. I do think dress is important, but only to a certain extent. Children should not wear "adult" clothing. Adults should be cautious and mindful when choosing clothing, but to obsess over showing skin seems to me to be unreasonable. I dislike the piercings/tattoos/heavy makeup/unnatural hair the most. The clothing comes second to me to what you do directly to your body.
Oddly enough, the example of Jesus may be appropriate for Christians to follow. There is no indication at all in the Gospels that Jesus dressed unusually, unlike his cousin John.
Apparently he fit right into a crowd of other Jews. The content of his message was what was important, and unusual appearance could only distract the audience.
So I think Christians should dress in ways that allow us to blend in, not offending anyone and not by implication aligning us with any particular group.
I guess if you can walk through a crowd without turning heads, you aren't too far off. Obviously that won't apply to some crowds!
I think that the author of this article seems to overlook the fact that there's a middle ground between Amish-wear and slut-wear. I wouldn't wear either. Skirts would be inappropriate for my job right now and I dislike them anyway, but I find nothing immodest about a pair of jeans and a nice shirt.
I agree. Dress should not be sexually suggestive but there is absolutely no reason not to look classy as long as it is modest. A good start would be to not have underwear showing, too tight so that the outline of everything underneath is revealed, or not have too much skin. My kids, who are teens, all object to the roll of (usually) fat that is constantly exposed around the middles of girls who look like they're wearing their little sister's cloths.
Girls tend to dress in a way to attract a boy's interest (I know that I did when I was a teen and so did my friends, so I KNOW it happens) but Christian girls ought to consider the message they are sending about themselves and their availability, and the temptation they are forcing the boys, and men, to deal with. It is simply wrong to titillate and then say "Look but don't touch", and "How dare you think *that* about me?" It wouldn't kill some of these girls to cover more skin.
Well, unless you think Pope John Paul II is roasting in Hell, you won't get much out of Full Court's threads.
It's legalism on parade.
I am pro-homeschooling, but not pro-bigot. I'd rather not be pinged to Full Court's legalistic threads in future if it's okay with you.
I think your response is "spot on" .. laugh..
The real issue has to do with the heart .. and the seriousness we take being "in the world not of the world".
I must say tho I find it a little annoying when people harp on dress. Yes - it can go too far EITHER direction.
I went to a Christian High School - as well as a Christian university that had extrememly strict dress codes for men and women. Truly they were not that difficult to follow - and I always managed to looked reasonably "normal".
I will tell you a story tho'.... I remember when the style of shoes were "Candies"... those high heeled shoes with just a strap across the toes to hold them on. They were quite the rage on campus... I NEVER understood it. They were shoes that off campus truly had a sleazy connotation... at least among older teens young adults in those days. I never did understand the appeal - but that sort of defined "being in the world - but not of it" for me when I refused to wear them.
So .. it doesn't matter WHERE you are - a homeschool convention - a Christian university - or a state school. Your dress PROBABLY will be a reflection of your heart... as your whole appearance is.
That is something I've tried to instill in my sons... THANKFULLY I don't have daughters to deal with ... I think I'd go mad trying to find reasonable clothes for her today.
Regardless of Full Court's views on Catholicism, he is absolutely right about immodest dress.
"I find nothing immodest about a pair of jeans and a nice shirt."
I don't find anything immodest about jeans, either. Honestly, I feel better covered in jeans than a jumper. My biggest problem is swimwear. I can't find anything for my 12 year old daughter that doesn't expose a lot of skin. The only other alternative are the swimsuits in some the the homeschool magazines but I think they are to old fashioned looking and would draw more attention to her and embarrass her.
I think for swimwear you have to just accept that it's a very particular situation, one in which wearing, basically, underwear is proper attire and then go with the best of a bad deal. It's always possible to find a one-piece; my swimsuit is actually a two piece top and little shorts. I haven't worn it in a year though.
Jeans are wonderful. I can haul around computers or trace wires under desks - which I am called on to do occasionally in my work - without worrying about someone looking up my skirt.
Thanks Pyro, that was very kind of you. And I'm a she. :-)
What a precious picture!
I found three wonderful outfits that I can use in Europe today. Longer skirts, blouse with sleeves, and overblouse.
Now to get the church veil for my head next month!
Why are you attacking Pope John Paul II and the poster, Full Court.
No personal attacks.
Have you tried Lands' End for swim suits?
I was defending the former Pope, not attacking him.
Full Court recently posted a screed that lambasted Billy
Graham for, among other things, believing Pope JPII might be in Heaven instead of Hell. I rightly considered the post bigoted.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.