Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:
Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done." - Hugh Nibley
Structure and Complexity of the Book of Mormon First Nephi gives us first a clear and vivid look at the world of Lehi, a citizen of Jerusalem but much at home in the general world of the New East of 600 B.C. Then it takes us to the desert, where Lehi and his family wander for eight years, doing all the things that wandering families in the desert should do. The manner of their crossing the ocean is described, as is the first settlement and hard pioneer life in the New World dealt with.... The book of Mosiah describes a coronation rite in all its details and presents extensive religious and political histories mixed in with a complicated background of exploration and colonization. The book of Alma is marked by long eschatological discourses and a remarkably full and circumstantial military history. The main theme of the book of Helaman is the undermining of society by moral decay and criminal conspiracy; the powerful essay on crime is carried into the next book, where the ultimate dissolution of the Nephite government is described.
Then comes the account of the great storm and earthquakes, in which the writer, ignoring a splendid opportunity for exaggeration, has as accurately depicted the typical behavior of the elements on such occasions as if he were copying out of a modern textbook on seismology.... [Soon] after the catastrophe, Jesus Christ appeared to the most pious sectaries who had gathered at the temple.
...Can anyone now imagine the terrifying prospect of confronting the Christian world of 1830 with the very words of Christ? ...
But the boldness of the thing is matched by the directness and nobility with which the preaching of the Savior and the organization of the church are described. After this comes a happy history and then the usual signs of decline and demoralization. The death-struggle of the Nephite civilization is described with due attention to all the complex factors that make up an exceedingly complicated but perfectly consistent picture of decline and fall. Only one who attempts to make a full outline of Book of Mormon history can begin to appreciate its immense complexity; and never once does the author get lost (as the student repeatedly does, picking his way out of one maze after another only with the greatest effort), and never once does he contradict himself. We should be glad to learn of any other like performance in the history of literature. - Hugh Nibley, Collected Works Vol. 8
The four types of biblical experts There are four kinds of biblical experts: At the very top are the professionals who have been doing biblical research all their adult lives. They are usually professors in leading universities in various fields that are related to the Bible such as archaeologists, historians, paleographers, professors of the Bible, and professors of Near Eastern languages and literature.
These people are the most credible of all biblical experts and do not let religious views get in the way of the truth. This is why a lot of them consider themselves to be nonbelievers in the modern Christian and Jewish faiths. Their reputation and standing in the academic community is very important to them. This causes them to be cautious and not rashly declare statements upon any subject without presenting verifiable proof for their claims. It is to them that encyclopedias, journals and universities go to for information. Their community is very small, but extremely influential in the secular world. One distinctive feature of this group is the difficulty outsiders face when reading their writings which causes them to be a fairly closed society.
The second group of biblical experts are those who have legitimate degrees and may have initially been in the first group but were spurned by the first group for being unreliable because they disregard demonstrable proof simply because their religious convictions teach otherwise. For them, their religion's teaching overrides real biblical research. Very few of them can be considered Fundamentalists.
The third group of biblical experts are the "biblical experts." These people disregard the works and conclusions of the first group, and view the second group as their mentors. Nearly all anti-Mormons who produce anti-Mormon paraphernalia fall into this group. Their views are purely theological and display ignorance of legitimate biblical studies. Their arguments are non-rational and are frequently sensational hype and empty rhetoric. These people are very vocal and constantly parade their "expertise" upon the unknowing masses by giving seminars in various churches and religious schools. Nearly all of them are Fundamentalists.
The fourth group of "biblical experts" are those who have never read the Bible completely and do not even know the history and contents of the Bible. They are completely reliant upon materials produced by the third group and may have five verses in the Bible memorized to quote at people they encounter (in nearly every instance John 3:16 and John 14:6 are included in these five verses) to give the impression they are experts in the Bible. They usually need the Table of Contents to find various biblical books and are extremely vocal in their condemnation of Mormonism. They personify the wise adage:
The less knowledge a man has, the more vocal he is about his expertise.
They read an anti-Mormon book and suddenly they're experts on Mormonism:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
The remainder of Christians are those who believe in the Bible but never read it. The Bible is a very complex book for most Christians and seems to possess a power that intimidates them. This is why a normal Christian is impressed whenever he or she encounters an individual who can quote scripture. It is this ignorance of the Bible that causes some to proclaim themselves "biblical experts."
I am not aware of anyone in the first group of biblical experts who are anti-Mormon. If anything, real biblical scholars who know Mormon theology have a profound sense of admiration for it and are usually astonished that so many facets of Mormonism reflect authentic biblical teachings.
They are frequently puzzled at how Joseph Smith could find out the real biblical teaching since modern Judaism and Christianity abandoned them thousands of years ago. Uniquely Mormon doctrines such as the anthropomorphic nature of God, the divine nature and deification potential of man, the plurality of deities, the divine sanction of polygamy, the fallacy of sola scriptura, the superiority of the charismatic leaders over the ecclesiastical leaders and their importance, the inconsequence of Original Sin because of the Atonement of Christ, the importance of contemporary revelation, and so forth are all original Jewish and Christian thought before they were abandoned mainly due to Greek philosophical influence.
Mormonism to these scholars is the only faith that preserves the characteristics of the early chosen people. This doesn’t mean these scholars believe Mormonism is the true religion, since their studies are on an intellectual level instead of a spiritual one.
On the other hand, the leaders of the anti-Mormon movement are nearly all in the third category with a couple in the second. Real biblical experts (who aren’t Mormon) and are in the first category normally refer to the “biblical experts” in the third group as the “know-nothings” or the “Fundamentalist know-nothings.” These terms aren’t completely derogatory, but are accurate descriptions of the knowledge of the “biblical experts” in the third group. Ed Watson - Mormonism: Faith of the 21st Century
They are a sabbath keeper
Most Christians believe they are decendance of Israel the first Saints were Jewish.
Judah is also a trible of Israel but dose not make up the whole 12 tribes.
The LDS believe they are of the line of Joseph.
There are all kinds of angels just to conveniently assign a devil angel to the LDS does not make it true!
Rev. 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
So many of you folks sound like our political nemesis!
We support the troops, but not the war!
The LDS are good people, but their church is false!
1-you were there and know that for a fact?
2-you have every recorded word that the Lord said and you know that as a fact?
If I am not mistake China has some of the scriptures in their language old than Israel?
7th day Sabbath?
Most Christians believe they are decendance of Israel the first Saints were Jewish.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Christians are the children of Abraham through faith.
There are all kinds of angels just to conveniently assign a devil angel to the LDS does not make it true!
I didn't say that. I proclaimed ignorance and tried to point out that the author insinuated that the BOM was either God inspired or man invented. He conveniently left off the third option.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
If we are warned about false prophets, then we must assume that there will be righteous prophets, too. The test will be whether they contradict what has already been written.
The LDS are good people, but their church is false!
I assume you don't agree with the Methodists or the Presbyterians or the Church of Christ followers, but do you then condemn them?
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I am not saying the LDS is the "her" with this quote. What I am saying is that there are many believers scattered all throughout the planet who will be called out of Babylon. We just have to make sure we are listening.
newheart: "He has the name above all names and I do not believe the Father intends for him to share his throne with anyone. Every knee shall bow. There is only one God and there will ever be only one."
Thanks Newheart, this is very important for us to remember!
The sinful nature of man is evidenced by his desire to be his own God - this is the very nature of man. When we begin to understand our total dependence and reliance on the ONE true living God, that is when we are properly humbled and begin to see His awesome character.
We can never be any more than what God makes us!
The author of this article does no service to the Mormon religion or apologetics.
Funny I was looking for you to ping you but I could not remember you FR Name glad you are here!
I was wondering, what is your opinion of Catholics? Probably much the same.....good people they just don't have the "true" religion.
Teenagers are perfectly capable of plagarism. That's essentially what the book of Mormon is, after all...Joseph Smith's "Empire Strike's Back", to God's "Star Wars".
Similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad:
Both were visited by an angel. Joseph Smith was visited by the angel "Moroni" and Muhammad by Gabriel.
Both were given visions.
Both were told that no true religion existed on the earth. In the published account of his life, Joseph Smith related
Both were to restore the long lost faith as the one true religion.
Both wrote a book inspired by God.
Both claimed to be illiterate or uneducated and used this as proof the book was inspired. "How could an illiterate man write the Koran or the Book of Mormon?"
Both claimed the Bible was lost, altered, corrupted and unreliable.
Both claimed their holy book was the most correct and perfect book on earth.
Both claimed that their new "Bible" was based upon a record stored in heaven. With Islam, it is the "mother book" that resides in heaven with God. With Mormonism, it is the golden Nephi plates that the angel Moroni took back to heaven.
Both claim that the version we have in our hands today are identical to what the prophet revealed and that parts are not lost, altered and corrupted. Of course the proof that these claims are invalid is found in two books. The Mormon claim is proven false by a book called "3913 Changes to Book of Mormon" by Sandra Tanner. The Islamic claim is proven false by a book (In Arabic language) called, "Making Easy the Readings of What Has Been Sent Down" by Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun. Both books show that the copy of the book of Mormon and the Koran used today is different from what was originally used when each religion was started.
There are 3 members of the Godhead if you want to think they are one blob find...
I take it literal that the language talks about a father, a son, an a Ghost!
The Father says this is my beloved Son, Hear him
The Son pleads with his Father in Heaven take this cup from me, thy will be done!
I do the work of my Father or I can do nothing but what my Father has shown me etc.
We are witnessing one on one conversations here between the Jesus and his Father!
you can't have it both ways
If you are tell freepers of the things your father taught you are you going to tell us he is a Ghost?
If your father begat you than how come when Heavenly Father tells us His only Begotten and way back when the Lord preisthood no longer on the earth some political Clergy of Constantine in a debate amoung others decide the nature of the Godhead*** and you give that more creedence than that which the words in the scriptures witness too!
***(that was a worldly decision BTW if the scriptures are all intact is so many like to claim why was there this need after 325 AD to still wonder about the nature of the Godhead? I am sure Jesus had that in the Church handbook as well as Paul had a copy!)
The members of the Godhead I believe in are not schizo!
Oh please how silly that sounds like off the top of someones head,
Joseph hardly ever read a book and was unlearned!
Of course, Nibley had to add this parenthetical statement, because he knows of the thousands of changes made in the so-called sacred dictation since the 1830 edition. Listen, if this was a letter for letter or word for word dictation, why all the changes?
I mean the LDS History of the Church claims that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon into English through the gift and power of God. He said that it is "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book" So why does "the most correct of any book on earth" need 4,000+ changes, even if most of them are spelling and grammatical changes?
According to the Institute of Religious Research:
Changes in Doctrine. Key Passages on Deity in the original 1830 text of the Book of Mormon were changed in the 1837 edition to reflect Joseph Smith’s changing doctrine of Deity. Joseph originally taught that Jesus and the Father were the same person and that God had always been God, but later developed the idea that the Father and Son were separate Gods, each with a tangible body. Smith taught that both God the Father and Jesus had been mortal men. What follows are specific examples from the original 1830 first edition Book of Mormon (which did not have verse divisions) compared with the altered text of recent versions.
Original 1830 Text vs. Current, Altered Text Anything that is italicized in ALL CAPS is text NOT in the original 1830 version and has been added "to the most correct of any book on earth."
Compare 1830 1 Nephi 3 vs. current 1 Nephi 11 (* is included to indicate that the 1830 text did not have verse divisions):
1830 version: 1 Nephi 3, p. 25*: And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh vs. current 1 Nephi 11:18: And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of THE SON OF God.
1830 version: 1 Nephi 3, p. 25: And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father! vs. current 1 Nephi 11:21: And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even THE SON OF the Eternal Father!
1830 version: 1 Nephi 3, p. 26: And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world. vs. current 1 Nephi 11:32: And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea,THE SON OF the Everlasting God, was judged of the world.
1830 version 1 Nephi 3, p. 32: These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world. vs. current 1 Nephi 13:40: These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is THE SON OF the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world.
Other Changes to the Book of Mormon. A variety of other changes have been made that also alter the meaning of the text.
Original 1830 Text vs. Altered Text
1830 version Alma 15, p. 303: yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable,, according to their wills vs. current Alma 29:4: yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills
As explained by the IRR: NOTE: Later editions from at least 1840 to 1980 deleted without explanation these eight words. LDS leaders re-inserted the omitted words into all editions since 1981. It is possible Joseph Smith deleted this portion of the verse because it conflicted with a revelation he claimed to receive in 1831 found in Doctrine & Covenants 56:4,5 "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all of this upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord. Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants …"
Orginal 1830 version: Mosiah 9, p. 200: … King Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings … vs. current Mosiah 21:28 … King MOSIAH [Benjamin deleted] had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings …
1830 version Ether 1, p. 546 … and for this cause did King Benjamin keep them … vs. current Ether 4:1 … and for this cause did King MOSIAH [Benjamin deleted] keep them …
NOTE: According to Book of Mormon chronology, King Benjamin was already dead when these events took place. Apparently LDS leaders changed the name to Mosiah to eliminate the mistake.
1830 version 2 Nephi 8, p. 87 … and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself not vs. current 2 Nephi 12:9 … and the mean man boweth NOT down, and the great man humbleth himself not … [NOT was added]
1830 version 1 Nephi 5, p. 52 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord … vs. 1 Nephi 20:1 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, OR OUT OF THE WATERS OF BAPTISM, which swear by the name of the Lord …
"White" changed to "Pure" 1830 version 2 Nephi 12, p. 117 … and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people. vs. 2 Nephi 30:6 (1840 edition) … and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a PURE and a delightsome people...
(Later editions until 1981) … WHITE and delightsome (1981 to current edition) PURE and delightsome
NOTE: Before 1978 dark-skinned males were not allowed to hold positions of priesthood authority within the Mormon church. Today Mormon scriptures continue to teach that dark skin is a curse from God and a sign of His displeasure (See 1 Nephi 12:23; 2 Nephi 5:21; Alma 3:6). Brigham Young, second president and prophet of the LDS church referred to those with dark skin as being "cursed with a s[k]in of blackness" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 272).
You want to explain why the original 1830 version had King Benjamin listed in Mosiah 9 (p. 200) and Ether 1 (p. 546) when King Benjamin was already dead when these events took place?
Why did Mormon leaders then replace "Benjamin" with Mosiah?
Can they go in there today & replace any "historical" figure with whoever they want to? Don't we know that otherwise as "historical revisionism"--a common tactic of liberals?
Why do LDS leaders play around with a supposed sacred word for word dictation of God's Word?
Why was this alleged dictation written in King James English? Except for those who read from the KJV--or who wrote according to its background--no one in 1830 American spoke King James English. Folks in the 1830s spoke English closer to the 20th century than the 16th and 17th centuries.
The LDS church changed the text to correspond to their change in doctrine in 1978.
Joseph did not replace replace "Benjamin" with Mosiah the printer error!
so!
Just curious if you are going to respond to my post #15? Your post #22 did not really address my questions. Thank you ahead of time for your kind response.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1622778/posts?page=5#5
Click on the photo!
Do you want to explain how it is that in this passage to the desert, that in 1 Nephi 2:6 the people walked from Jerusalem to the river Laman in Arabia--some 250+ miles away--and did so in a mere 3 days even though senior citizens went with them and they were loaded down with supplies? [Somebody should have told Moses they had a shortcut!]
Let's say they rested/ate/went to the bathroom for only 2-10 total of those 72-80 hrs...Let's say they were on the move for 70 hrs. That means they were zoomin' @ 35 mph! [Why hasn't GM or Ford come out with a sporty car called the Camel in honor of them?)
So while it took them a mere 3 days to cross the desert, on the other hand, where the BoM says nothing about divine power helping them cross such a desert, it does point out that they had "furious winds" blowing their barges in the trip over the ocean. So how long does Ether 6:4-11 say it took them w/these furious winds? 344 days!
Okay. Joseph flunked maritime math. Others have pointed out that if you are being blown by furious winds toward the promised land speedily, as Ether 6 contends, and if you're only going 10 mph over 5,000 miles...then that 344-day trip could be condensed to three weeks.
Also, I suggest that if you're going to make a trip from the Middle East to the Americas, that you NOT make a hole in the bottom of the barge (as indicated in Ether 2:20), lest you have a mini-Titanic experience @ Laman Harbor.
The alleged Smith/BoM reason for such a hole in the bottom of the barge was so that it would provide air should the barges be turned over in the ocean storms. Okay, even if we could for a moment pretend that being in a barge with a hole in the top and a hole in the bottom would somehow stay afloat, imagine being turned over in an oceanic storm. Every time the barge flipped, what was happening to the supplies, people and animals?
If you doubt me, please go to your backyard pool or your bathtub, place a wooden barge with holes in the top & bottom, and then place pretend plastic people & animal & rocks (supplies) in them. Now flip them over like in a storm. Now tell me, minus any divine miracle, what happens? (Note that Jared wasn't instructed to cut holes in the barge so that God would work another sea-crossing miracle; rather, it's purpose was merely an air pocket in case they flipped...but if you flip in mid-ocean, you're immediate problem is not air, it's water...[and only as you're drowning does air become the problem].
Pray tell. Who has replicated brass compasses [the "liahona" as described in 1 Nephi 16:19; Alma 37:38-39, etc.]? Is brass an interchangeable compass part with an iron needle? [Gee, I always thought compasses were linked to the magnetic field of the earth & therefore needed iron needles...how ignorant of me]. But then again, what can you expect of a device that wasn't even't invented for another 1800 years? {The real compass was invented in the 13th century, not 600-592 B.C.) Maybe the magnetic aspect of the earth was only a latter-day development, eh?
No because its been answered many times in pass but if is a favorite that like to resurface now and than!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1555210/posts
I think the Avenging Angel asked that question too!
Do you Colofornian remember the Avenging Angel?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1582827/replies?c=147
Who was banned for the various things he tried to say to me a while back?
Any way when the same old same (FR, especially hostile X-er's) asked the same old same old quesition I wonder what is their real agenda is it answers or just another opportunity to try to poison the water!
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