Note: this topic was posted 04/15/2006. Thanks wagglebee.
Posted on 04/15/2006 11:36:25 AM PDT by wagglebee
Saul was a Pharisee.
"The Jews" who killed Jesus were the Temple Sanhedrin. The Gospels also accuse (some of) the Pharisees of plotting to kill him, but they didn't do the deed.
Allegedly
The only evidence we have is that Saul was a Pharisee, there is no evidence to the contrary. Unless you want to contend that the whole thing is a fabrication, in which case there is really nothing to discuss with you.
You know exactly what I mean.
Ok. One more time. Whoop de doo.
but the date and original language of the Gospels mean that Rome had nothing to do with the state of the received text. At the time our first copies of the Gospels and Acts were written, Rome was still very much pagan, and had zero interest in revising or altering the obscure texts of what to them was an annoying cult on the fringes of the Empire. That was my point.
Perhaps. But I don't ignore existence of proto-orthodoxy. Funny coincidence that the thousands of Jewish believers James was talking about in acts were nowhere to be found in the mid 2nd century. Of course by that time a human was given divinity. Not too many Jews would want to stick around for that.
Of course the religious authorities in Jerusalem were conspiring to wipe out Jesus's followers. That isn't disputed by anyone.
It would be helpful if you pointed out which religious leaders and source something other than the NT.
Their motives, however, had to do with the fear of attracting attention from the occupying authorities, not with race hatred. Caiaphas is quoted in one of the Passion Gospels as stating that it was better that one man should be sacrificed than the entire people. The religious authorities were trying to avoid what happened soon afterwards with the revolt and destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.
Obviously "Jewish" Religious leaders were not motivated to hate their own race. That came later by Orthodoxy. Things like outlawing Sabbath observance and such. Not everyone believes NT is inspired. So its probably going to be difficult to prove a point with all the NT quotes.
The idea that this had anything to do with "anti-Semitism" as it is currently understood ignores the politics of the eastern Mediterranean at the time.
I thought I made it clear later writers, redactors and interpolaters were anti-semetic? You'll probably notice I didnt' cede your point that all these early manuscipts read then as they do now.
I must have missed backing away from something.
The only evidence we have is that Saul was a Pharisee, there is no evidence to the contrary. Unless you want to contend that the whole thing is a fabrication, in which case there is really nothing to discuss with you.
He can say he's a pharisee all he wants. Talk is cheap. Most of his actions, as depicted in NT writings, confirm otherwise.
It's like trying to nail jello to the wall.
If I want feminist humanism, I can turn on the TV or pick up any magazine at the supemarket checkout counter
My wife and I left the United Methodist Church behind in 1979, and have never looked back. We still go to Easter services with her folks, and it seems as though the typical congregant nowadays is 70 or more years old. It's kinda like the founder of Willow Creek Church. Once a year, he goes back to the church he grew up in -- just to remind himself of everything he wants to avoid!
One of my fantasies is to buy an old UMC church building some day, move in, and start a living church within that shell. It's not impossible -- some Pentecostal friends of mine were once GIVEN a beautiful old Unitarian clubhouse, since the members were all dying out!
some Pentecostal friends of mine were once GIVEN a beautiful old Unitarian clubhouse, since the members were all dying out!
I've been to Willow Creek several times, mostly for friends. It is Emblematic of everything I cannot stand about contemporary Christianity. It's all marketing, packaging and entertainment, little spiritual depth, more of a pep rally than a worship service. I have found a fairly traditional Roman Catholic Church and it rings true. When I heard that Willow Creek was closed on Christmas because of a lack of attendence, that spoke volumes.
You don't have to look at the NT for that, we can see a lot of older stuff like Cain and Abel, Saul, David and Absolom, The Sons of Israel and Joseph, Ahab, Ahaziah and the rest of the Book of Kings for that matter. You don't need to worry about the anti-Semitism of the NT prophets, the Old Testament prophets and writers seemed to be rending their garments over God's chosen people as well.
Since when is in-house Jew on Jew ugliness considered anti-semitism? That would be like a Jesuit squabble vs other Catholics being anti-catholic. get real.
Sorry, I thought you were originally refering to the squabble between the Pharisees and the Christians (who were Jewish).
No prob. I had the beef mostly with the later interpolaters and redactors that intentionally made Jews seem like morons.
Note: this topic was posted 04/15/2006. Thanks wagglebee.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
