Bible-Burners (build it yourself bibles)

New Oxford Review ^ | February 2004 | Dwight Longenecker

[Campion]

"Conveniently has no 'organized' church" Ya know, with comments like these no wonder there were a lot of anti-Catholicism in the early days of America.

???

There were "organized" (I think he means "established") churches in most of the U.S. in the early days, though the First Amendment forbade such an establishment at the Federal level. In fact, until the 1870's, a person standing for election to the state legislature in New Hampshire was required by law to be a Protestant. (I'm pretty sure that law wasn't enacted by Catholics.)

[Iscool]

Outside that line, is there anything that is inaccurate?

Seems to be a pretty one sided picture...I see no mention of Catholics burning Protestants at the stake, cutting the stomachs of pregnant Protestant women and ripping out the babies while the mother was still alive, by the thousands, etc...

As I understand it, the violent actions of the Protestants was in response to the murderous, heineous crimes perpetrated by the Catholics in England and throughout Europe AND in the period known as the dark ages; 500-1500 A.D. where the Catholic church murdered anything that moved that wouldn't bow down to the pope...

And, as I understand it, the Catholic church has for centuries claimed anyone outside the church to be anathema and worthy of death (council of Trent (?)), and although not discussed in public, that accusation is still valid today...

[Pyro7480]

It's not surprising to see Catholics rewrite the Inquisition.

The Inquisitition isn't even the subject of the article!! No serious Catholic denies the Inquisition, but we don't buy the overblown post-Luther description of it.

[aimhigh]

There was no Inquisition in England, and the only Inquisition in France concerned the Cathars, and was over centuries before the Reformation.

More revisionism.

[Rytwyng]

Tyndale translated the term Baptism into "washing," Scripture into "writing," Holy Ghost into "Holy Wind," bishop into "overseer," priest into "elder," deacon into "minister," heresy into "choice," martyr into "witness," etc.

Those happen to be the literal meanings of the Greek words.

[Jaded]

Eye-roll

[Campion]

More revisionism.

LOL. That's simple historical fact, and nobody with any knowledge of the time denies it.

[Tax-chick]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question:

Does any remember the chart that was posted more than once some time back, showing the development of Protestant denominations and subgroups from Henry 8th and Luther down through the 19th century?

My Sunday School class asked me about the differences between Protestant churches and ours, and I'd like to do a class covering the history and general variations in doctrine.

Any suggestions on a one-stop resource for this would be appreciated!

Vlad, the Ravenous Maw, says HEY! to his namesake, Fr. Campion :-).

[Pyro7480]

As I understand it, the violent actions of the Protestants was in response to the murderous, heineous crimes perpetrated by the Catholics in England and throughout Europe AND in the period known as the dark ages; 500-1500 A.D. where the Catholic church murdered anything that moved that wouldn't bow down to the pope

Concerning England, Henry VIII started it when he imprisoned and executed Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher, who are both now recognized to be saints by the Catholic Church. Even up to the reign of Elizabeth I, there a great number of Catholic who wanted nothing but the right to have spiritual care from priests, who risked their lives for the sake of these people. Many of them were executed for just doing this.

In terms of "murder" of heretics, this was carried out by national or local governments, not by the Church. Heresy was a crime that was punished by the state. Oh, by the way, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really "dark" at all at many points during those years.

[Campion]

I see no mention of Catholics burning Protestants at the stake, cutting the stomachs of pregnant Protestant women and ripping out the babies while the mother was still alive

You mean like St. Margaret Clitherow, a pregnant lady crushed to death under rocks for the "crime" of concealing a priest?

As I understand it, the violent actions of the Protestants was in response to the murderous, heineous crimes perpetrated by the Catholics in England and throughout Europe AND in the period known as the dark ages; 500-1500 A.D. where the Catholic church murdered anything that moved that wouldn't bow down to the pope...

Is this that famous principle of Christian morality that two wrongs make a right?

You've heard one side of the story. Now you have the other. Neither side was very pretty.

[Esther Ruth]

Some other good links ...
http://history.hanover.edu/early/prot.html
http://www.williamtyndale.com/0reformationtimeline.htm
http://cat.xula.edu/tpr/movements/english/

[Gamecock]

It seems only fair that we look at both sides of the issue both sides of the issue.

[AnAmericanMother]

We weren't even talking about the Inquisition here . . . unless you can provide some facts it just looks like random Catholic-bashing. (Maybe there ought to be a corollary to Godwin's Law, concerning people who bring up the Inquisition out of the blue . . . )

As a matter of historical fact, there was no Inquisition in England. Mary Tudor along with her husband-in-name-only had a shot at trying and executing Protestants, but Rome had nothing to do with it. And Edward, Elizabeth and their mutual daddy participated wholeheartedly in the opposite direction.

Much of the conflict in England was political. Henry VIII wanted the monasteries' wealth to shore up his debased currency . . . the wanton destruction was a side-effect of stirring up the masses against the Catholic church. The problems with the succession and Henry's failure to produce an heir created still more political conflict and dragged the religious issues in again because of the refusal of Rome to annul Henry's first marriage just because his sons by her failed to survive to grow up.

. . . I was an Episcopalian for years before I became a Catholic, and as my undergraduate degree was in history I have more than a passing familiarity with the English situation. The article seems to hit the nail on the head -- if you have any historical fact to the contrary, please provide.

[stuartcr]

Religion of peace?

[Salvation]

BTTT! Good and ACCURATE information there!

[bremenboy]

Bible Burnnig How bout Dog burnnig

An example of the cruelty meted out is that of Mr Collins in 1538. Collins was a Catholic and mentally subnormal. He was known as an idiot without common sense. In the terms of the day, a madman. He had no religious affiliations other than being a Catholic. During mass at a church in London, when the priest lifted up the host, Collins lifted up his dog. He was arrested, along with his dog and taken immediately to Smithfield’s. Both were burnt alive. People recognised that he was wrong; the feeling at the time being that he should have been tied to a cart and whipped, or sent to the madhouse. But people felt that there was no excuse for the scene of cruelty that took place. Questions were asked which the Catholic Church has never answered. For the dog to be burnt under Church law it had to be excommunicated first, but before you can excommunicate a dog, it would have to have been baptised! Equally the same applied to poor Collins, whilst he was baptised into the Catholic Church, he was not excommunicated before burning. His burning was murder by the laws of the time, yet the church was so evil and so powerful it could murder in this way without trial and laugh at the questioning of this illegal act.

After torture, victims would be taken to a public place and either hung for slow strangulation or chained to a stake and burnt alive.

http://homepages.enterprise.net/sisman/burningandpersecutions.html

[Pyro7480]

His burning was murder by the laws of the time, yet the church was so evil and so powerful it could murder in this way without trial and laugh at the questioning of this illegal act.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Church couldn't execute anyone. It was the state that did this.

If you want to bring up executions, how about the Martyrs of England?

[Nihil Obstat]

Today's culture is so much more civilized. We would have had pre-natal tests that determined he was mentally sub-normal. Then he would have aborted. Thus sparing the dog, for PETA's sake.

(big sarcasm of course)

[sanormal]

Dwight's post demonstrates that the Reformation was the religious justification for the political rise of the Nation-State and cannot be understood outside this context.

The religious ideas of the Reformation accompanied political actions and had political consequences.

Thankfully, Christianity was able to seperate politics from theology (not morality from theology). America is the result of this division and has prospered from it.

[SoothingDave]

If your choice of religion is based upon polemical fantasies about how evil other religions are, you might want to try some introspection.

SD