Posted on 02/21/2006 2:17:28 PM PST by Aussie Dasher
THE head of the World Council of Churches has expressed concern about the spread of megachurches around the world, such as Hillsong in Sydney, saying they could lead to a Christianity that is "two miles long and one inch deep".
The WCC General Secretary Samuel Kobia said megachurches - huge Protestant churches with charismatic pastors, lively music and other services - mostly ran on a business model to make worshippers feel good and were shallow in their theology.
Megachurches, which pack in thousands for rousing Sunday worship services, are popular in suburbs in the United States. Most are evangelical or Pentecostal, with few or no ties to mainline churches such as the Lutherans or Episcopalians.
Mr Kobia said the megachurch movement, which is not represented in the mostly mainline Protestant or Orthodox World Council of Churches, broke down borders among denominations with a populist message.
"It has no depth, in most cases, theologically speaking, and has no appeal for any commitment," the Kenyan Methodist said at the WCC world assembly in this Brazilian city.
The megachurches simply wanted individuals to feel good about themselves, he said.
"It's a church being organised on corporate logic. That can be quite dangerous if we are not very careful, because this may become a Christianity which I describe as 'two miles long and one inch deep'."
Reverend Geoff Tunnicliffe, international director of the 400 million member World Evangelical Alliance, said at the assembly that "historical and deeply-felt issues" separated them from other branches of Christianity.
The largest US megachurches attract some 20,000 worshippers every Sunday. Abroad, megachurches have also sprouted up in Australia, South Korea, Britain, Canada, and other countries.
According to a report by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, there were 1210 US churches drawing more than 2000 worshipers, the official minimum for a megachurch. That was double the number in 2000.
The WCC groups nearly 350 Protestant and Orthodox churches that mostly broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054 or in the 16th century Reformation.
We don't always agree, but I have to say, that is an awesome dubbing for megachurches....
The reason I seldom post on Freerepublic anymore is that I know longer care to engage with all the busybodies telling people what is or isn't proper behavior for a conservative or a Christian. I'm more content these days to look at the log in my own eye than to attempt removing the speck out of others' eyes.
The body politic, like the Body of Christ, is better served with less factionalism by individuals who claim to believe in the same things.
I suppose this is a minor opus on my part. I've no longer the time nor inclination to argue over minor points of political or religious orthodoxy....
It doesn't say anything about apostasy. People interpret it how they want, but that's not what is said. It says there are sins bad enough to lead to death. Some aren't, and you should pray for your brother in that situation. Purely and simply written, that's what it says. Here it is in a number of translations for your perusal.
KJV
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Youngs Literal translation
16If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech;
17all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.
NASB
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, (A)he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death (B)There is a sin leading to death; (C)I do not say that he should make request for this.
17(D)All unrighteousness is sin, and (E)there is a sin not leading to death
CEV
16Suppose you see one of our people commit a sin that isn't a deadly sin. You can pray, and that person will be given eternal life. But the sin must not be one that is deadly. 17Everything that is wrong is sin, but not all sins are deadly.
NKJV
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
Darby
16If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death. There is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request.
17Every unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not to death
The Message
16For instance, if we see a Christian believer sinning (clearly I'm not talking about those who make a practice of sin in a way that is "fatal," leading to eternal death), we ask for God's help and he gladly gives it, gives life to the sinner whose sin is not fatal. There is such a thing as a fatal sin, and I'm not urging you to pray about that. 17Everything we do wrong is sin, but not all sin is fatal.
ESV
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God[a] will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
Hey, don't worry about it. I don't expect most people to agree with me. I'm fairly "out there", after all.
I'm glad you liked the post, but I can't claim to have originated the word "WorshipTainment". Believe it or not there is an actual church here in the USA that came up with the word and uses it as the name of its "youth ministry". I guess they don't see the humor.
I doubt your megachurch had positions on the following issues:
1)Christ's kingship, priesthood etc.
2)How Christ fulfilled his role as the Second Adam
3)How salvation occurs....the process...soteriology
4)Probably avoided eschatology as well since there is wide disagrement here
5)A complete doctrine of sin
6)Complete doctrine on the work and function of the Holy Spirit.
THIS is the problem with megachurches. They don't know WHAT THE HECK THEY BELIEVE.
Sure, they have some brief statement of faith that is so vague that anybody could assent to it.
For example, here is Central Christian Church's statement of faith (a Wichita megachurch). This is the only statement of belief they have.
"We Believe the Bible to be the only inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God.
We Believe there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We Believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, atoning death on the cross, bodily resurrection, bodily ascension into heaven, and His personal return once again in power and glory.
We Believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. That salvation cannot be gained by human effort, but only through God's grace in the redemption He provided in Jesus Christ, a redemption which is responded to by faith and which leads to a life devoted to obeying God.
We Believe that repentant believers in Christ should be baptized in water, by immersion (the Biblical form of baptism), in obedience to Christ.
We Believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We Believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost: they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
We Believe that, because all believers are spiritually united in the Lord Jesus Christ, we should cooperate in all possible ways in God's work with our fellow believers, both those among us and elsewhere, loving and being patient with one another in our differences."
What a weak statement. No real doctrine of eschatology, just basic prattle anybody can assent to from Catholic to Methodist to Baptist to Charismatic. Ironically, the only statement in which Central has any balls at all to take a hard stand is on the mode of baptism.
THIS IS WHY MEGACHURCHES ARE A PROBLEM.
It is not the size of the church...the size is an awesome testimony fo the power of God. The problem is that these churches are churning IGNORANT, know-nothing Christians.
The devil is a crafty SOB, and WE NEED TO KNOW AS MUCH AS WE CAN about ***what Christianity teaches and why*** in order to DISCERN his temptations and leadings to false doctrine.
If all we have is a pathetic little statement like Central's, we WILL be led into false doctrine. We WILL be led into sin. And the devil will have his way with us all the while we don't know it.
Election is mentioned in Scripture numerous times by word. Look it up.
Yeah, but they are shallow in a Marxist way. The megachurches are shallow in a CORPORATE way, and that's just WRONG (to the Marxists, anyway.)
About 150 is the max you can have get together without natural groups forming within the larger group.
Got any references for that? I remember once upon a time seeing an economic study of Spanish anarchist collectives. Things worked OK, as long as the group size was roughly one hundred or less. Same principle.
The congregation we're a part of now is the largest we've been in in my life, somewhere around 700. Yes, it is somewhat fragmented as far as natural groups within it.
I should have clarified. That was directed at folks who critize big churches for their architectural design and number of parishoners (as though design and occupancy levels were scriptural), not at government regulations, though I can see I didn't make that clear.
You got that right. I'm very familiar with the WCC.
Got it from the book Tipping Points...in that he discusses why one religious group always starts a new congregation when they reach somewhere near 100-150 because that's the range where cliques start.
With the right outlook and training, you can condition yourself to avoid sinning. (not all the time, of course, but for the most part) Even if you aren't a believer, your life here on earth will be better for it.
That's the idea behind spiritual growth and also raising people with values...Honor codes reflect that as well, if done properly. All good stuff comes from God, I believe, even when it's not the complete message of salvation...and the need for order and the things that make happy lives are known to some degree everywhere. Ethics. Values. Honor.
It's all spelled out there in the link I posted to you. And ALL of it is based on the Ten Commandments.
There was a little dust up betwix herself, Continental Airlines and the FBI.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1545925/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1545362/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1544632/posts
You mean Episcopal is still called a church, last I heard Spong is trying his hardest to disprove all the fundamentals of Christian beliefs, resurrection, virgin birth, etc
far from perfect;it is filled with sinners!
http://www.constantiacenter.com/
5 solas!
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