Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!

Cor 12 says there is one body. Jesus Christ is the head of that body. I believe we agree on that.

Christ is preached in your church. I am certain of that. Christ is preached in my church. You can be certain of that. We should be thankful that the name of Christ is preached in both places. (Phil 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.)

IMHO, that is the bottom line.

Absolutely ...
Pilippians 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Where-ever Christ is preached, ... there is a membership of His body.

No...you did say it was part of Catholic Church teaching when I challenged you on your assertion that the Catholic Church began as a Christian heresy.

You may dance and weave, but you're still nothing more than an ignorant source on my Church. Accusations you've made range from the requirement that women still must wear a mantilla to an accusation that the Pope is a fraud.

You've not been able (and I've read every single one of your poorly written, grammatically incorrect and absolutely clueless posts on this thread) to provide one shred of evidence that backs up your wild claims.

You dog an issue until you've been beaten back and then quickly jump to another. You, sir, are the France - no, that's too generous, you are the Catholic bashing equivalent of Howard Dean.

It would surprise me little if you and the former governor of Vermont share political leanings as much as you do weakness in debating.

The mythology and legend of Catholic relics, teachings, etc. is extant. RC traditions such as Thomas witnessing in India, Peter being the first bishop of Rome or Antioch are without historical foundation. The thousands of so called relics have no historical provenance. The RC Church has no historical basis at all for these claims, either scriptural or through historical documentation. It is similar to Mariology, saint veneration, papal infallibility, etc. There is no scriptural evidence for any of this. This mythology is all built on the cornerstone of your doctrinal authority - tradition and apocryphal writings.

The mythology and legend of Catholic relics, teachings, etc. is extant.

I really didn't want to get into this again...but you are just plain wrong in your assertions. I don't want to tarry too long with you, but here's a couple of examples pertaining to relics:

Act 5:15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them.

Act 19:11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

Act 19:12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

2Ki 13:20 So Eli'sha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.

2Ki 13:21 And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli'sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli'sha, he revived, and stood on his feet.

Those are ONLY THREE examples of the use of relics in the Bible. There are more.

(sigh) Really and truly my FRiend, you should make sure that you know what you're talking about before casting stones.

It is called Holy Scripture - God breathed and not the tradition of man or your church. God did not need your church or any man to convey His Word to His people. You misunderstand that those who He conveyed His Word through were tools in His hand and not the authors of Holy Scripture. That you believe your church decided what was Scripture and what was not is just another example of the arrogance of a church that worships itself.

The authority for healing is not of hankerchiefs or aprons or in whoever owned them - the authority is from God. Remember you worship a jealous God and by placing your faith in relics or by bowing in front of a graven image or by using any intermediary between yourself and God other than the Lord Jesus you go against His commands.

Exodus 20:3

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Matthew 4:8-10

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

(sigh)...I begin to think that you'd rather see Catholics in hell than atheists. I can just feel the love coming through here...

Once again, the same statement made above applies here:

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Jhn 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

1Cr 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

Three more verses to show where you are mistaken...

Could it be that God has blessed this nation which is majority Protestant.

A country that embraces abortion and homosexuality? I cannot fathom God blessing this nation, morally vile as it is.

Well ... of course God has blessed this nation ... and continues to do so.

That He does so is surely not a testament to our national perfection, ... but because America, most recently of all nations, has been the source for the majority of christian endeavor, ... particularly since of the fall of Europe into it's post-christian era.

And certainly it is not, necessarily, America herself, ... which has embraced moral evil, ... but rather, it's (particularly judicial) leadership.

Note that Satan has struck most effectively via our nation's unelected leaders.

It has always been debatable whether the people of America have ever really embraced abortion (though certainly some have) ... and our last national election apparently turned (to the good) ... upon the issue of not allowing gays to encroach upon the godly institution of marriage.

We are, even now, taking back some of the ground that the liberals have stolen over the last 35 years.

You define tradition as the Pharisees defined tradition - tradition, however, is the teaching that the apostles learned from the mouth of the Lord - it is what the Lord has handed down to us as Holy Scripture. Tradition is not the tradition of man. Jesus let the pharisees know what He thought of their tradition.

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

It is called Holy Scripture - God breathed and not the tradition of man or your church. God did not need your church or any man to convey His Word to His people.

You do realize that the first books of the New Testament were most likely not written until 20 years after the Ascension and the foundation of the Church, right? The last books were not written until as late as 40 years after that. I wonder what the CHurch was doing in the meantime.

Sometimes I wonder if some Protestants are so absent-minded as to think that on the pages of the Bible is when things happen. As if Peter was given the Keys in Matthew 16 vs. being given the Keys sometime in the year 31 or 32. The people and events in the Bible are real history, folks. And it was already history when it was transcribed into the New Testament.

Could it be that God has blessed this nation which is majority Protestant.

A country that embraces abortion and homosexuality? I cannot fathom God blessing this nation, morally vile as it is.

Well ... of course God has blessed this nation ... and continues to do so.

That He does so is surely not a testament to our national perfection, ... but because America, most recently of all nations, has been the source for the majority of christian endeavor, ... particularly since of the fall of Europe into it's post-christian era.

And certainly it is not, necessarily, America herself, ... which has embraced moral evil, ... but rather, it's (particularly judicial) leadership.

I've been meaning for weeks to touch on this America-self worship stuff. It's a kind of Protestant-lite sort of Dominionism. As if America is the most loved because we vote and have lots of money and property. It's such a myopic worldview and not dissimilar to how American liberal Catholics view things, as if America is the center of the Catholic world rather than about 5% of it.

And as to Christian endeavor? Joel Osteen books and Pat Robertson TV shows aren't what I'd consider great endeavors. I don't really see what America is contributing to the larger world on a religious level. It's all pretty self-contained. As to it being only the politicians (surely only the Democrats, of course) and judges that have embraced evil, think again. On abortion a very good portion of this country accepts it in at least some form. The fight's been lost for decades on contraception. Pretty soon we'll lose it on gay marriage, and shortly after that cloning. And it's not because some politician forced it on us.

This country is in a decrepit moral state, no matter what the unemployment rate or the GDP is. I can't speak for God, but my best guess is he doesn't really care how much the dollar is worth and if manufacturing is up, when he judges a people. This country beter wake up, morally before something happens that'll put 9/11, Katrina, and that tsunami to shame.

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