Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer
You do agree, don't you, that your view is also based on a man made tradition?
BTW, there are as many definitions of "Sola Scriptura" as there is of "Protestant". For my edification would you kindly tell me the definition you are working with.
There are many Protestant Churches which ascribe to the Apostles Creed, a typical version follows:
Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.
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You will note verse 9. Many Protestants believe they belong to the holy catholic (universal) church while none belong to the Roman Catholic church.
You have jumped to a conclusion which is baseless.
Remember, not third or fourth generation copies, but original documents.
In other words, you're sticking with the Bible in plain English and refuse to examine what it means when it is "translated" into Greek?
Is there any possiblity whatsoever, in your own understanding of your own understanding, that you could be mistaken? Or have you reached fallibility in this area based upon the plain English meaning of words?
Can your mind perceive the distinction between what you think a passage means and what the author of the passage actually meant to convey?
What harm is done to your faith if the "brothers" of Jesus are in fact not children of Mary, but are his kin by other measures? Does it scare you to admit that others may be right?
SD
Amen, Reggie, amen.
SD
You have evidence of a sect that venerates mobster relics? Cause otherwise, this is a pretty silly analogy.
SD
I have no interest in your one liners. Please don't post to me anymore.
I have never been "amen'd" so much in my entire life. :-)
Dave, for you to be right, I would have to disbelieve Scripture, and I am not willing to do that.
Matthew 1:25 And knew [ginosko {ghin-oce'-ko} Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman] her not till [heos {heh'-oce}; Until] she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
annalex it seems you are the one pretending trying to elevate your opinion as fact
I gave a recap of all of the verses related to this topic what your problem!
The "problem" is that no one here is ignorant of the existence of the verses. What is in question is what was meant by the word that ended up being translated into English as "brothers." Some of the more simplistic folks here have steadfastly refused to engage the question that "brother" might have meant something more than "male siblings from the same uterus."
Until the simple-minded side acknowledges that the word in question can have a broader meaning, they will continue to repeat, futiley, the same verses over and over without ever examining the meaning.
This is infantile, to refuse to look at the arguments another makes and to refuse to consider that words can have more than one basic meaning.
SD
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:25, Douay-Rheims)
kai ouk eginosken auten eos ou eteken ton yion autes ton prototokon kai ekalesen to onoma autou iesoun
Sometimes "eos" means that the action (or in St. Joseph's case, inaction) before the moment it points to has ceased and sometimes it means that the action continued. We understand which is the case from context, and when we need to translate into English, which has a more finely defined words, we choose between "until", "till", "to" or "before". Both Douay and King James translate it as "till"; I am not suprised that mariophobic translations, that abounded in modern times and Harley is using, mistranslate it as "until". It is most similar to the English "till" which also does not have the strict "before, but not after" meaning. For example, if I say "I did not drink alcohol till the blood test" the likely context is that my blood work should be good, not that I went to the bar right after I went to the clinic. But if I say "I did not drink alcohol till I joined a fraternity in college" then the context is, most likely, that I drank once I joined because that is what fraternities are for, are they not? In Matthew 1 the context is that Christ's birth was miraculous, not the relations John and Mary had after the focus of Matthew's story shifted away. It is reasonable to assume that Mathew's focus was on the absence of marital act before the birth of Christ, not after, all the more so since the testimony of Joseph to that effect had to me made at the time of Christ's birth, but testimonies of one's sex life for reasons other than establishing paternity are not common. Matthew simply had no way of knowing what Joseph and Mary's intimate life was the rest of their days.
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SoothingDave:In other words, you're sticking with the Bible in plain English and refuse to examine what it means when it is "translated" into Greek?
Full Court: Matthew 1:25 And knew [ginosko {ghin-oce'-ko} Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman] her not till [heos {heh'-oce}; Until] she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
So, your response to a person who takes you on a careful examination of the Greek word "eos" and provides examples of its usages in the Bible is to simply point out that this word is translated by the KJV as "till" and rest your case on the simplest sense of the word in English.
Are you proud of yourself? Do you think God is happy with you ignoring evidence presented to you about what His Word means in the original languages?
I ask again:
Is there any possiblity whatsoever, in your own understanding of your own understanding, that you could be mistaken? Or have you reached fallibility in this area based upon the plain English meaning of words?
Can your mind perceive the distinction between what you think a passage means and what the author of the passage actually meant to convey?
SD
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