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Where Have All the Protestants Gone?
NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: abortion; branson; catholics; christians; churchhistory; contraception; protestants
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To: OLD REGGIE; Conservative til I die
"17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.'

Equipped for every good work, yes. Intended to be read in complete isolation from the Historical understanding of Christianity handed down from the Apostles as a basis for every individual to determine their own personal doctrines, no.
1,701 posted on 02/25/2006 12:44:40 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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To: Conservative til I die; Invincibly Ignorant

Invincibly Ignorant has asked that you not ping him. Do not ping him or discuss him in a reply post to someone else!


1,702 posted on 02/25/2006 12:48:56 PM PST by Sidebar Moderator
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To: OLD REGGIE
Are you brazenly quoting 2 Timothy 3: to support Apostolic Succession?

I am saying that 2 Timothy 3 cannot be properly understood until we read 2 Timothy 1 and 2 Timothy 2. Which is the case with any book, by the way: you read it from the beginning.

The consecration of Timothy is here:

6 For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands.

(2 Timothy 1)

The instruction to pass on the teaching authority to others is here:

2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

(2 Timothy 2)

The specific instruction to ordain certain men is in the previous letter:

1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, [...]

8 Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre: 9 Holding the mystery of faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved: and so let them minister, having no crime.

(1 Timothy 2)

19 Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses.

[...]

22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man

(1 Timothy 5)

The fact that not every time a figure of authority is described in the scripture, his consecration is also mentioned, shows nothing. The fact that not every laying of hands describes the sacrament of Holy Orders does not deprecate the context shown above, where it is.

***
My overall advice is not to read the scripture until you can get a good spiritual advisor, Catholic or Orthodox. Without instruction grounded in the tradition of the Church, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) your reading is very likely to lead you away from the truth. I will be happy to help you along (I am Catholic) but I am but a layman and my time is limited.
1,703 posted on 02/25/2006 1:02:26 PM PST by annalex
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To: InterestedQuestioner
OLD REGGIE, you are being cynical. It's a big deal for a Church to not contradict Scripture on a single point.

How about adding to Scripture? You can't contradict Scripture when you invent stuff not discussed in Scripture or taught by the Apostles can you?
1,704 posted on 02/25/2006 1:10:54 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Full Court
God however says it is to make the man of God perfect and "throughly furnished."

No He doesn't. It says that the scripture is "profitable" to make the man of God "perfect, furnished to every good work". He does not say it is alone sufficient, just profitable. Oral instruction is mentioned throughout the letter.

"Throughly" is not there either. God says:

ina artios e o tou theou anthropos pros pan ergon agathon exertismenos (2 Timothy 3:17)
Please find "throughly".
1,705 posted on 02/25/2006 1:12:32 PM PST by annalex
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To: Full Court
the clear teaching of Scripture that..

1. Mary had sex with Joseph.

There is no scripture to that effect.

1,706 posted on 02/25/2006 1:13:42 PM PST by annalex
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To: Full Court
Bible says Mary had sex with Joseph

No it doesn't.

1,707 posted on 02/25/2006 1:14:22 PM PST by annalex
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To: gscc
To me "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son" is so clear

Read Greek much?

1,708 posted on 02/25/2006 1:17:48 PM PST by annalex
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To: Jaded
I am refering to a specific event that others seem to disregard.

If Jesus violated some Jewish law then, according to you, He sinned. Or, by chance, are you cherrypicking your examples?
1,709 posted on 02/25/2006 1:23:07 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: gscc; annalex; Jaded; Conservative til I die; Dionysiusdecordealcis
"To me "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son" is so clear. Those that parse this Scripture reminds me of someone who took great pain to parse the meaning of "is".'

Gscc, what is being claimed here is that the Bible says Joesph engaged in sexual relations with the mother of the Christ. The Bible does not say that. It says that Joesph did not know the mother of Jesus in a Biblical sense prior to the Birth of the Christ. It absolutely does not say that this changed after the birth.


You feel that the word "until" implies sexual relations after birth. Your interpretation of that verse is certainly a reasonable one, but it is not definitive. The verse does not say that Joesph actually had sex with the Mother of God after the Birth of the Christ.

You feel it's implied. I don't. This particular verse, however, does not give us definitive answer. We can not hang an entire doctrine on the word "until." Mary is central to the mystery of Christ because it is through her that God chose to take on His humanity. As the Mother of our Savior, she was elected to play a central role in the Incarnation of Christ. She was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she carried God within her for 9 months. God is Himself, in a sense, united with Mary because he chose to take on human nature entirely from Mary's human substance. Moses could not wear his sandals on the ground near the burning bush because it was Holy, the site of a Theophany. Mary is much more Holy, she is not the site of a theophany. She is that through which God enters into Creation, she is that through which God breaks into human history. The Creator of the universe manifests His humility in the person of the virgin Mary. She stands at the center of the entire physical universe, because it is through her that God breaks into history in a defining way. It is through Mary that God becomes enfleshed. The entire History of the universe is divided into a "before' and "after" by the Incarnation of Christ, which God chose to consummated through the person of the Virgin Mary, God's most Holy vessel whom he consecrated as the God bearer. Mary is the handmaid of the Lord. That which God touches is made Holy, and that which is made Holy is set apart.

The view being objected to is the view that the Mother of our Lord was somehow a piece of meat, who was at one moment the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and at another moment engaging in completely unfruitful sexual relations that produced no children. Perhaps this is not the view that you intended, but if you think through the implications of someone having sexual relations with the Spouse of the Holy Spirit from a Scriptural context, you will be led into a position of heresy, my friend. The entire veracity of the Gospel message can be called into question with this one doctrine, that a man had carnal relations with the Mother of Christ. Think the implications of this through as far as you can, and see where they take you. It will not be to a pretty place.

There is much more at stake here than the parsing of an ambiguously used "until." Mary carried Christ within her, and in a sense, Christ carried Mary within him in the humanity of his person.

Taken to it's logical conclusion, the belief that Joeseph had sexual relations with the Mother of our Lord, a belief that you probably consider to be totally innocent and inconsequential to your doctrines of salvation, will lead to blasphemy.

The perpetual virginity of the Mother of the Christ is not a matter of casual indifference to Christianity.
1,710 posted on 02/25/2006 1:23:29 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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To: annalex

Me: 1. Mary had sex with Joseph.

You: There is no scripture to that effect.

God:Matthew 1:24  Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25  And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


1,711 posted on 02/25/2006 1:25:58 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Again, it is specific to him giving care of his mother to a non-relative. He would not have done that. Maybe Luther or Zwingli decided otherwise.


1,712 posted on 02/25/2006 1:26:58 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: annalex

Genesis 38:26  And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

Judges 19:25  But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

1 Kings 1:4  And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.

Matthew 1:25  And knew her not till she had brought forth
her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


Every time the phrase is used it is talking about sex.


1,713 posted on 02/25/2006 1:28:14 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: InterestedQuestioner
The Catholic Church (Roman and Orthodox Catholicism) Canonized the Bible under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

False.

1,714 posted on 02/25/2006 1:29:16 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Do you think it's about time for both Full Court and you to stop passing judgement on each other?

1 Corinthians 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1,715 posted on 02/25/2006 1:30:52 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: annalex; Full Court
Which translation and in which language? You read Greek? I do.

Too bad there is no copy of the "Bible" which is older than the third or fourth copy. That is, you are far, far away from any original.
1,716 posted on 02/25/2006 1:33:02 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
You each state your case from silence and I don't think it will have any bearing on the salvation of either one of you.

The fact that Mary was with the brothers and sisters of Jesus makes more for the case that she was their mother.

We also have the fact that Scripture makes it clear that Mary and Joseph had sex. We also have clear Scripture saying that Jesus was Mary's firstborn.

There is NOTHING to indicate that she she sinned by withholding sex from Joseph or that she was not the mother or those children.

1,717 posted on 02/25/2006 1:33:38 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Jaded
Again, it is specific to him giving care of his mother to a non-relative. He would not have done that.

based on what Scripture?

We know from the Bible that Mary and Joseph had sex, that Jesus was the firstborn, meaning others were born after, and we know that he had siblings from the bible.

So where in the Bible is it a sin for Jesus to give care of Mary to John?

1,718 posted on 02/25/2006 1:35:49 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: InterestedQuestioner
Mary is much more Holy

She is no more holy than I am.

Luke 8:20  And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21  And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

1,719 posted on 02/25/2006 1:38:52 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court

The Catholic Church (Roman and Orthodox Catholicism) Canonized the Bible under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


1,720 posted on 02/25/2006 1:39:32 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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